(Go to this link to get details of the settlements in Gaza and the Shomron. Click on the cities to get and overview and video of each one.)Rallies for the support of Gush Katif and other areas included in the disengagement are to be held tomorrow. There has been much criticism of the rally on this site and in the Jewish News and other sources. Much of the criticism has to do with statements made by the organisers and the wording on posters and in articles. This has led to some very emotional outbursts on this site and others.
While it does not excuse the organisers, there is a strong precedent in our community for rash and irrational public statements. Only a couple of years ago the community erupted in debate about the awarding of the Sydney Peace Prize to Palestinian "activist" Hanan Ashwari. Every macher had to have his say which gave the press lots of fodder to show how the Jews are trying to control public opinion. If the "experts" in our community cannot get it right how can we expect a group of politically inexperienced people to present their cause in a rational way.
With regards to the disengagement there are a number of issues at play here but the fact that people are being removed from their homes against their will bothers me the most. We are sitting in our comfortable houses in Melbourne enjoying our middle class lifestyle and are unmoved by the fact that Israeli citizens, who pay taxes and serve in the army etc. etc. are being evicted from theirs.
But saying that I still have negative feelings about publicly marching down Inkerman and Hotham Streets in a demonstration against the democratically elected Israeli government. Even apart from the fact that the Rebbe was against us participating in public political demonstrations this demonstration will serve no practical purpose. From a religious point of view it would make more sense to have an evening of tehillim, divrei Torah and discussion about how we can help Israel.
I am even more disturbed by the rumour that some Zionist youth groups will be holding a pro-disengagement counter demonstration. This is really going to play well in the secular press!!
Rather than dismiss the complete cause let us join in the saying of tehillim wherever we are between 8:30pm - 8:45pm on Tuesday evening.
Here are a number of web sited devoted to the disengagement cause:
Worldwide Solidarity Rally for the Land of Israel
Australian Friends of Gush Katif
Friends of Gush Katif
Save Gush Katif
Even Aish.com has something to say - here
While it does not excuse the organisers, there is a strong precedent in our community for rash and irrational public statements. Only a couple of years ago the community erupted in debate about the awarding of the Sydney Peace Prize to Palestinian "activist" Hanan Ashwari. Every macher had to have his say which gave the press lots of fodder to show how the Jews are trying to control public opinion. If the "experts" in our community cannot get it right how can we expect a group of politically inexperienced people to present their cause in a rational way.
With regards to the disengagement there are a number of issues at play here but the fact that people are being removed from their homes against their will bothers me the most. We are sitting in our comfortable houses in Melbourne enjoying our middle class lifestyle and are unmoved by the fact that Israeli citizens, who pay taxes and serve in the army etc. etc. are being evicted from theirs.
But saying that I still have negative feelings about publicly marching down Inkerman and Hotham Streets in a demonstration against the democratically elected Israeli government. Even apart from the fact that the Rebbe was against us participating in public political demonstrations this demonstration will serve no practical purpose. From a religious point of view it would make more sense to have an evening of tehillim, divrei Torah and discussion about how we can help Israel.
I am even more disturbed by the rumour that some Zionist youth groups will be holding a pro-disengagement counter demonstration. This is really going to play well in the secular press!!
Rather than dismiss the complete cause let us join in the saying of tehillim wherever we are between 8:30pm - 8:45pm on Tuesday evening.
Here are a number of web sited devoted to the disengagement cause:
Worldwide Solidarity Rally for the Land of Israel
Australian Friends of Gush Katif
Friends of Gush Katif
Save Gush Katif
Even Aish.com has something to say - here
AE You are spot on! Another issue which has just been forwardes to me is an official email calling on all to jam the phones of the Israeli embassy. This is an activity that suits fanatical muslims rather than to jews. I am forwarding to you this email!
ReplyDeleteI will be saying tehiliim and I agree with everything you said above except for this--I do not feel guilty living my comfy life in the Diaspora.
ReplyDeleteHashem created Diaspora for a purpose. We are here by Divine Purpose and we have things we need to accomplish while our fellow Jews are also there for a reason.
What is to feel guilty about? We didn't make the Israeli government policies, the pols did.
As long as we are trying our best to be good Yidden, wherever we live, in whatever circumstances we find ourselves in, then this is the best thing we can do for ourselves and for our bretheren in Eretz Yisroel as well. Guilt is a wasted emotion in this case.
Teshuvah, tzedakah, and tefillah will brig Moshiach now!
I have been sent a copy of the email from the head of the Australian Gush Katif committee asking people to call the Israeli Embassy and tie up their phones.
ReplyDeleteI sent an email back saying:
Surely this is too much!! Have your protest if you must but this is just childish harassment.
As frum Jews we should be saying tehillim not engaging in this sort of irresponsible behaviour.
I am disgusted!! This is not mentchlichkeit.
Thank you for letting these orange people know that to jam the phones of the Israeli embassy is harrasement. What would happen if G-D forbid there would be a terrorist attack and they could not get help etc. These activists seem like rather daqngerous people.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately nothing will stop the disengagement, so these desperate people will do all kinds of crazy things. They should be given therapy treatment, as they are obssesed.
Oy Vey! They will make Ozzie Jewry look like a bunch of weirdos!
ReplyDeleteWhat could the orange people possibly expect to accomplish by this?
ReplyDeleteNothing. But also nothing by all the fuss and there march. They are living in Noddyland!
ReplyDeleteI hear the girls today in BR had orange ribbons in their hair. Will if this can't save Gush Katif then nothing will- Not even to tie up the Phones at the Israeli Embassy!
ReplyDeleteI don't know which is worse; the fanatics from the left wing or the right wing?
ReplyDeleteDear AussieEcho, fellow member of the community (for some reason, you are ashamed to identify yourself),
ReplyDelete1) At least they're doing SOMEthing! And what are the other Jews of Melbourne doing? NOTHING! "Silence is consent"!
2) What on earth is the source of your assertion, AussieEcho, of (sic) "the fact that the Rebbe was against us participating in public political demonstrations"?
Nothing could be further from the truth:
1) "It is irrelevant whether or not protesting will be effective, because the reason for protest is not that a logical reason exists to indicate that protest will be effective, but rather because we are pained by the situation! .... when dealing with matters of life and death, we cannot be silent! This is the clear ruling in the Code of Jewish Law, based upon an undisputed ruling in the Talmud, that it is forbidden to remain silent in matters of life and death! ...It is impossible to know what the outcome would be if even one person would protest. All the more so when there are, thank G-d, quite a few protesting. Some are protesting behind the scenes, others publicly; some in Yiddish, others in other languages, etc. If people were not protesting, who knows what the situation would be like now?"
"The Talmud says that all positive things must be done even a hundred times until the result is achieved. The rabbinic authorities imply that this directive is not an exaggeration but is meant literally. ... But if the world is in balance, then with one isolated act of protest, one could "swing the balance for himself and the whole world to the side of merit, and bring salvation and rescue to himself and humanity." No one knows When there could be a more propitious time than the present.
"...The very fact that there are certain rabbis who issued a rabbinic ruling and sent it to the Israeli government (despite the fact that they knew it would not be effective), is already proof, that this is what needs to be done. This is because inasmuch as they are rabbis they must protest, and they must not be concerned with the notion that they may not be adhered to.
"....When the Torah says, "You shall not stand idly by your brother’s blood," it does not mean, that you are only required to involve yourself when you are certain that your efforts will be successful. Rather, even if there is only a slim chance — even only the slightest of chances — that you will succeed in your protest being heard, you must do this, for it is the unequivocal ruling of the Code of Jewish Law!"
"May it be G-d’s will that all those who remain silent (and they are many) finally involve themselves in this issue, since it is easier to deal with an acknowledged opponent, than with someone who remains silent. It is impossible to engage the latter in discussion when he insists on remaining silent: he listens, he hears the arguments, and proceeds to do nothing about it." 11 Shvat 5731.
"Whether one is accustomed or not, if there is a chance that his silence will be misinterpreted, then he has no choice. Whether he likes it or not, he must articulate his position, at least briefly...." Purim 5730.
http://www.truepeace.org/thecry/five.htm
2)
The Rebbe sent a letter to the Va'ad of Kfar Chabad that every Chassid Chabad who can should attend the largest ever - 250,000 people at the beginning of Oslo. They wanted clarification, what about women and children and bachurim. The Rebbe said, "Anashim, nashim v'taf". (Men, women, and children.) The sent again a question about women and the Rebbe answered that he already said anashim, nashim v'taf.
As for the Rebbe's words about Russian Jewry: There it was a specific, exceptional situation, because of the dynamics of the relationship between communist Russia and America. This is not comparable to Jews speaking out about what ought to be done in their very own country!!
Again, as proven above, on the "issue" of land concession, the Rebbe openly supported PUBLIC protest against concession to terrorists.
As for the claim that the govt. there was "democratically elected,"
1) Sharon is infamously acting against the platform on which he ran, making him a dictator,
2) And if it was democratic, so what? Is democracy infallible? If the govt. is corrupt and is playing into the hands of terrorists and endangering Jewish lives, how can you sanction that for a moment?!
rabbioliver@gmail.com
Rabbi Oliver,I agree with the Melb orange people politically but I disagree with their tactics because they are causing a chilul Hashem. Read the rest of this comments on this site and you will be informed of their juvenile and destructive tactics.
ReplyDeleteHow can you assume that if people who do not agree with the local orange people then that means they are doing nothing, as you claim? Perhaps those who disagree with the local orange people's tactics are also doing something but, not with the orange people, but other things they believe to be more effective.
Rabbi Motel Gutnick wrote an opinion on this issue that is on this site. Have you read it? If not I suggest you do. He comes out with quite a different view to yours.
In your comment above I believe you are quoting the Rebbe out of context changing the entire meaning of his words. The Rebbe was directing his words to the political leaders of his day when he said they should protest and not to the whole of anash.
Rabbi Oliver, one more thing-the Rebbe condoning public protests in Kfar Chabad does not mean he would condone public protests in Chutz L'aretz. We cannot be certain what would the Rebbe would tell us about protesting in the streets here in OZ, and since we cannot know for sure then we should not extrapolate from his words, as if we are certain. Surely, there is room for enough doubt on this issue to allow us to take pause and reconsider if this is the correct course of action to take or not. I am sure you would agree that there is wide room for debate here.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your comments on democracy: the undemocratic behaviour of some of those in the anti-disengagment camp has in some cases been just as bad as those who are for disengagement. Don't go down that track because it weakens your arguments considerably.
Yehoishophot, protesting and demonstration are not the same. The expression the Rebbe used was mecho.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the 250,000 people event against Oslo that you refer? Was it a street march?
Dear Mr Oliver,
ReplyDeleteYes I am scared to indentify myself. I am scared of fanatics. I am scared of extremists. I am scared of zealots. I have spoken or comunicated with Moishe, Aaron, Saul and Joel and believe me they have absolutely no idea of the complexity of the issues, all they are doing is having a spoilt child mentality with no regard of the consequences. While the Rebbe was alive Chabad NEVER were allowed to protest in the Golah. Not even against Goyim and definetly not against our fellow jew. The rebbe liked and respected Ariel Sharon and if we agree with disengagement or not we must still behave like Jews and civilised people. Unfortunately there is an extreme militant minority in Israel and here who are willing to hurt the community and Israel just because Jews in Gaza are being relocated at enormous cost to Israel.
I do not know where in Chutz La'atetz 250,000 Lubavitcher chassidim demonstrated? I hope you have your facts right!
ReplyDeleteDoes Oliver agree with using the Holocaust for political purposes? Jamming phones of the Israeli embassy? Saying that Sharon is worse than Hitler? Writing that this is the worst atrocity even done in History to Jews?
ReplyDeleteThe fact is not one communual leader or organisation as endorsed or supported this stupid anti Israel demonstration! Just read what 90% of the public say on these blogs and you will quichly realise that the activities of the Orange people are only supported by children and loonies.
Would Kasriel or Tzippy demonstrate against Jews in the Golah?
Just about no one is silent, but 99.9% of Jews anywhere in the world would not cause a chillul Hashem and have "the guts" to embarrass Israel and the community and cause them long term problems in front of the Goyim and the Media.
ReplyDeleteIf you can't achieve anything what heter do the orange people have for there tactics and causing a security threat to us. (according to Gavin from CSG)
The Rebbe says ARTICULATE YOUR POSITION not march with Bnei Akiva boys and Girls down Inkerman Street, together with the pro disengagement protesters!
ReplyDeletePlease don't twist the Rebbes words to suit your own agenda.
To try to organise people to sabotage the phone system of the Israeli embassy so they should need to change their numbers is sick. Are these the people that we should let run our community?
ReplyDeleteWhere are our Rabbis and community leaders who can stop these orange people before it is too late!
They are dangerous. Especially 16 year old Joel.
Isn't the mentality of the Orange People "My way or the Highway"? Anyone who doesn't agree with a public street demonstration against the leaders of Israel are pro Arab, Jew haters etc. etc. Very narrow minded people with absolutely no tolerance. Even right wing leaders like Dr Danny Lamm are against this street demonstration. What is the purpose of the Music and drums besides atracting our young kids who are being used!
ReplyDeleteGK
Oliver you quote the Rebbe, and then call Ariel Sharon a dictator. Would the Rebbe aprove of such Sinah? The Rebbe always respected the leaders of Israel even when they had much worse policies against Yiddishkeit like putting Sefardi children into anti frum kibbutzim in order that these innocent children should loose all thier yiddishkeit. The Rebbe always believed in Darchei Noam. You have alot to learm.
ReplyDeletePS. If every time a politician has a policy which was not part of his platform is a dictator as you claim, you couldn't find a politician anywhere who is not a dictator.
Just this minute I received an email stating that the rally is now starting from Ohel Devorah in Meadow St.
ReplyDeleteObviously Caulfield Shul decided that they didn't want to have anything to do with the rally...
But Rabbi Ch Z. Groner supports this mishegas.
ReplyDeleteCongratulation to Caulfield Shule for obeying the Lubavitcher Rebbe and having nothing to do with this demonstration.
ReplyDeleteYechi caulfield Shule!
Rabbi Oliver I can't work you out. First you say Sharon is a Dictator and then you say "is decocracy infallible" Is this 2 bob each way?
ReplyDeleteYou claim that 250,000 demonstrated due to the Oslo accord, may I suggest it must have been a Moshiachist who saw them, and he was seeing things again!
Did the Oslo Accord Protest that the Rebbe supported, start from Caulfield Shule or from Chaim Tzvi's Ohel Devora?
ReplyDeleteWas the colour then also Orange or another colour? Were the Embassy's phone lines also jammed up?
Could Rabbi Oliver Twist please remind me!
At least the HAMAS are fine and proper as they are anti disengagement!
Will Rabbi Chaim Tzvi ensure that there will be no mixing of the sexes. Or is the Halocha Osik B'Mitzvah Potur min HaMitzvah?
ReplyDeleteI wonder is when all the other sins that were committed by Israeli Governments against Torah and Yiddishkeit over the years if people also marched or is Gush Katif more than Shabbos, Kashrus, Digging up graves for Roads, MiYehudi etc. etc.??
When I studied in Crown Heights in the 70s I remember a protest by Satmar Chassidim in Manhattan against forced autopsies in Israel.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe was not happy then due to demonstrating in front of Goyim.
Can I ask a simple question: If this is a community forum, why aren't people identifying themselves? What are you afraid of? That people will accuse you of ... proudly declaring what you believe? Would you say what you think at a Shabbos table, knowing that people know who you are? Why is this different? Although I disagree with Mrs. Silcove, at least she has the courage to stand up for what she believes, and doesn't hide behind anonymous screen names.
ReplyDelete<< How can you assume that if people who do not agree with the local orange people then that means they are doing nothing, as you claim? Perhaps those who disagree with the local orange people's tactics are also doing something but, not with the orange people, but other things they believe to be more effective.>>
I would be most gladdened to hear of things that "non-orange" people are doing. Please share them with me, it will brighten my day. All I've seen is apathy, life as usual, no protest, not even extra Torah, Tefillah and t
Tsedaka, and I feel I am beginning to know what it must have been like in America during the Holocaust.
<< Rabbi Motel Gutnick wrote an opinion on this issue that is on this site. Have you read it?>>
It caused me much pain and distress.
<< In your comment above I believe you are quoting the Rebbe out of context changing the entire meaning of his words. The Rebbe was directing his words to the political leaders of his day when he said they should protest and not to the whole of anash.>>
ReplyDeletePlease direct me to where in that sicha or any other one on the importance of crying out when Jewish life is in danger, the qualification is made that those who are not political leaders are not to cry out?
I know what is discussed in Gemara Sotah:
Pharoah issued three decrees regarding new-born babies - that the midwives had to kill all new-born Jewish baby boys; that they must all be thrown into the Nile, and that even the new-born Egyptian babies must suffer the same fate.
Amram, the Nasi of shevet Levi, reacted to Pharoah's second decree by divorcing his wife (Yocheved - an act which all of his tribe emulated).
His little daughter Miriam 'rebuked' him, for "your decree is worse than Pharoah's!" - causing him to retract.
She argued that Amram's decree was worse than Pharoah's on three scores. Firstly, whereas Pharoah's decree affected only boys, his affected girls too. Secondly, his decree incorporated both worlds, whereas Pharoah's was confined to this world only - meaning that Pharoah's could throw the babies into the Nile, but that would not prevent them from later receiving a portion in the World to Come, whereas if nobody would marry, the potential babies would be deprived of life in both worlds.
Her third argument was based on the Pasuk "ve'Sigzar Omer va'Yakam Lach" was - that whereas the decree of Pharoah's, who was a Rasha, was not certain to come into effect, her father's decree was (since a Tzadik's decree is bound to materialize), as the Pasuk "ve'Sigzar Omer va'Yakam Lach" teaches us.
The result of Miriam's rebuke was that Amram remarried Yocheved, and all the other Levi'im took their cue from him, and took back their wives too.
The Torah writes "Va'yikach es bas Levi" (as if he was marrying her for the first time), rather than "Va'yachzir" - because they arranged a proper wedding (to publicise his mistake) as if it was a first one.
The raw courage of Miriam, who was only a girl of three at the time, to make such a demand of the then leader of the generation, should serve as a lesson to us all of the power that every individual has to protest for Jewish life.
B"H
ReplyDelete[the Rebbe condoning public protests in Kfar Chabad does not mean he would condone public protests in Chutz L'aretz. We cannot be certain what would the Rebbe would tell us about protesting in the streets here in OZ, and since we cannot know for sure then we should not extrapolate from his words, as if we are certain.]
I concede that I cannot be certain of what the Rebbe said about the particular case of Australia. However, the Rebbe said, in the sicha quoted, that if there's even a minute chance that the protest might be effective, it must certainly be done. So that makes me certain that this is what ought to be done.
[ the undemocratic behaviour of some of those in the anti-disengagement camp has in some cases been just as bad as those who are for disengagement.]
As I said, the main issue is not democracy and politics, but pikuach nefesh—threat to Jewish lives G-d forbid, and threat to Jewish ownership the G-d given Land.
[The Rebbe liked and respected Ariel Sharon]
This person is not the same person that the Rebbe respected.
[ Unfortunately there is an extreme militant minority in Israel and here who are willing to hurt the community and Israel just because Jews in Gaza are being relocated at enormous cost to Israel.]
uh, are you for real??
Do you realise that this is not just an issue of real estate, but that Jewish lives—throughout the holy land of Israel--are in danger??
As the Rebbe said, and is anyway dictated by common sense, cowardly concessions to terrorists increases their desire to commit more terrorist acts, as has already happened, may G-d save us. The ones "hurting the community" are those who sit idly by and fail to protest!! What are YOU doing to protest?? Are you learning from 3 year old Miriam?
[Does Oliver agree with using the Holocaust for political purposes?]
This is not a matter of politics, but of danger to life! And a 2nd Holocaust is exactly what the terrorists are calling for, hoyo lo sihiyeh!
[Jamming phones of the Israeli embassy?]
I disagree with that.
[Saying that Sharon is worse than Hitler?]
Well, I disagree with that wording; he's collaborating with the Hitlers of our day—that's how I'd put it.
[ Would Kasriel or Tzippy demonstrate against Jews in the Golah? ]
not sure what this means
again, if you are making personal references to my family, could you at least identify yourself?
[Just about no one is silent, but 99.9% of Jews anywhere in the world would not cause a chillul Hashem and have "the guts" to embarrass Israel and the community and cause them long term problems in front of the Goyim and the Media.]
"Silence is consent." Kidushin, daf 46
By sending the message to the non-Jews that we oppose disengagement, we make a KIDDUSH Hashem.
So the Israeli government can bring eternal shame upon itself by expelling Jews from their homes, but when we point that out in front of the non-Jews, we're *embarrassing* the Israeli government?! We're repudiating that behaviour, and somewhat alleviating the long term problems in front of the goyim and the media caused by the morally corrupt government. At least they'll realise that not ALL Jews are so insanely cowardly.
[Where are our Rabbis and community leaders who can stop]
... the "disengagement"?? Why aren't the Rabbonim heeding the Rebbe's words to constantly protest? As the Rebbe says, "inasmuch as they are rabbis they must protest, and they must not be concerned with the notion that they may not be adhered to."
[ Oliver you quote the Rebbe, and then call Ariel Sharon a dictator. Would the Rebbe aprove of such Sinah?]
The word "dictator" is simply an expression of the fact that his policies are the exact opposite of those who voted him in, making him not a democratic leader, but a dictator. No offense meant. I didn't use any nasty names, just described the reality. How would you put it in a politically correct way, so as not to offend anyone supporting concessions to our sworn enemies?
[If every time a politician has a policy which was not part of his platform is a dictator as you claim, you couldn't find a politician anywhere who is not a dictator. ]
True, but this was central to his platform, not a peripheral issue at all.
[Congratulation to Caulfield Shule ]
Shame on Caulfield Shule.
[I can't work you out. First you say Sharon is a Dictator and then you say "is democracy infallible" Is this 2 bob each way? ]
Even according to AussieEcho's philosophy, (and that of many people in Mizrachi, apparently—please prove me wrong on that) anyone democratically elected should be respected, no matter how morally corrupt their actions. So I said that even according to him/her, the government ought not be respeocted, because their acting contrary to their platform.
Then I said that regardless, democracy is not the issue, because the presumption that democracy is infallible or a valid basis of morality is flat wrong. The only valid basis of morality is Torah. Hope that's clear.
[At least the HAMAS are fine and proper as they are anti disengagement! ]
huh? They’re HAPPY about it, they point to it as proof that their violence has been effective, and that from these gained territories they'll launch more terror attacks, chas vesholom!!
I printed out this discussionand showed it to a wise old relatove of mine.
ReplyDeleteHis comment?
Nebach a dor yosom...Having to decide between the opinions of Chaim Zvi and Mottel Gutnick. [He has known these men since they were kids.]
He added: That no so long ago we would have hear the wise and holy words and opinion of the Rebbe and we would have accepted those qords unconditionally, knowing that that is the roztzon Hashem.
But today..... Ov Vey!
We NEED Moshiach NOW!!!!
Dear Rabbi Oliver,
ReplyDeleteI read with interest your Rabbinical Statement and although I am not familiar with your Synagogue or how long you have been a Rabbi I find your logic a little hard to follow. The fact is that none of your collegues being other Lubavitch Rabbis or Independent ones have supported this demonstration.The issue is not only that the demonstration is absolutely useless but the more important issue is the public perception that religious Jews are against the Israeli Government. I realise that the vast majority do not agree with the demonstration against relocating the Jews from Gaza (to ensure a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisrael) but many people might think that these demonstrators are a true indication of the views of the public. This must not happen.
Yours
Marvin Weinberg
So according to Rabbi Oliver there are 2 Ariel Sharons! Which one are we supposed to protest against?
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comments Yehoishophot. Although I obviously do not agree with all of them I appreciate you taking the time to write.
ReplyDeleteA word of clarification about this blog. It is not a community forum - it is a personal blog. The fact that I am interested in the community and Israel as are so many people is irrelevant. One of the advantages of such a forum is that people can be anonymous and feel able to express themselves more openly.
To Marvin: A rabbi doesn't have to work for a shul to call himself rabbi. If someone has dedicated a good portion of their life to studying Torah and has been given smicha he is entitled to call himself rabbi.
To everyone reading this: Please refrain from personal comments. Surely we are mature enough to have a discussion without resorting to personalities.
Dear Rabbi Oliver if you would come to my home and sit in my Tzedoka box you would realise that you do not know everything that is going on in each home. I give alot more Tzedoka and say 1 hour Tehillim each day. My son and daughter also say tehillim each day. So even if you know what each jew did or didn't do in America during the Holocaust you are not aware of everything that goes on in this town even if you are an esteemed ultra right wing Rabbi who knows what the Lubavitcher Rabbi would have done!
ReplyDeleteRabbi Oliver-thanks for calling me courageous for identifying myself. I wish more people would do so as, there is nothing to fear but Hashem. Everyone has a right to an opinon, and as long as it is done with civility, our opinons should be aired.
ReplyDeleteYou ask what the non-orange people are doing--who are we to judge which Jew may be quietly doing teshuvah, or crying out to Hashem during tefillah, or giving tzedakah. As a Rabbi you must surely know that things are often not as they appear, and there are people who care very deeply about this issue who prefer to act on it without making a loud noise in the streets, and this does not neccessarily indicate that they are apathetic.
Your example of Miriam does not resonate with me. I fail to see how it applies to our present situation. They were all tzadikim and I do not believe Miriam 'protested' like these local orange people are doing--in front of the goyim without derech eretz or ahavas yisroel.
To set the record straight--I am also against the evacuation. I am also a follower of the Rebbe and I am a believer in his principles of shalaymah haeretz. We differ on the tactics and method of protest.
From the point of view of the goyim, they will not see this demo as a repudiation of of a corrupt government. The goyim, in my view, do not differentiate between Jews, they see us as one whole entity. From their point of view, they will see that Jews are fighting Jews--period, end of story.
Yes, silence is consent, but our voices should only be used when they will have an effect--and that is not to the goyim in the Diaspora, but among ourselves and in Eretz Yisroel itself, where this issue will ultimately be resolved.
Furthermore, the goyim do not see Sharon as a dictator rather, Israel is perceived as the only democracy in the Mid East. It is not enough to be correct in your political views but, if one is wise, one must also ask oneself when one makes public political statments how these statements will be received by the public.
We do not live in a vacuum, especially we Jews who are under the constant scrutiny of an unfriendly unsympathetic media. Think how they will distort this. Think how they will twist and turn all this until the original message becomes completely lost. All the media will report is that Jews are fighting Jews, and that the Jewish people are divided, and they and all the anti-Semties will relish this negative publicity.
And the media, which is already biased against the settlers, will use this to create even more propaganda against the much beleagured people of Gush Katif.
Nothing good can come from
this, nothing at all. It will only make matters worse.
As for the protests in Eretz Hakodesh--I cannot judge what they are doing there and will not comment since it is not myself who is at risk of losing my home.
Rabbi Oliver!
ReplyDeleteHow can Rabbi Mottel Gutnick's comments cause you pain and distress when he is the only Rabbi who has until today called on People to do positive things in regard to Kush Katif. (As you yourself suggest) He states he is against giving back land, follows the Rebbe, calls on all to daven to Hashem and suggests to find out from overseas what can be done. And all this pains you, as he together with every single other Rabbi does not support Street protests in front of Goyim which the Rebbe was very clearly against. Maybe you have work related problems that you are trying to bring into this argument to besmirch the good name of Rabbi Gutnick.
All the prophecys of doom and gloom of what will happen now that Gush Katif is being evacuated were also said when the late Menachem Begin gave back Sinai and Yamit. All the scaremongering turned out to be hog wash!
ReplyDeleteOnce bitten twice shy!
Nshei Chabad is sending out emails announcing the demo.
ReplyDeleteWhy are they going against the Rebbe's teachings? Don't they know what the Rebbe said?
Don't they know what Rabbi Motel Gutnick said? Who is in charge there of Nshei?
Whom do they represent. I am a Chabad woman, but they do not represent me in this issue,and alot of other Chabad women as well.
Another examples of the small minority that makes the loudest noise and tries to make the public believe they are in charge. These women who are supporting this demo in the name of Nshei Chabad, please stop pretending that you represent the Lubavitcher women of Melb.
And these same people talk about the lack of Sharon's democratic principles, while all I see them doing is hijacking the Chabad community and shoving their point of view down everyone else's throat. How ironical!
Hold it there Shoshana.
ReplyDeleteWho appointed Mottel Gutnick to be the rebbe's spokesman or in fact the unterperper of his words??
He has his view but that doesn't mean it is the rebbe's view. Chaim Zvi holds that HE knows the rebbe's hashkafa better.
I don't know which of these 2 gentlemen is correct - but neither do you.
ALl I can see is that the non-political, respected talmidei chachamim Chabad rabbanim have not made any public statements - as they do not feel themselves worthy of stating 'the rebbe's view'.
I mean rabbanim like Reb Feitel, Reb Binyomin Cohen, Rab Kievman, Reb Arel etc.
Just because Rab Yehoishofot Oliver is the son of Kasriel doesn't obligate him to have the same opinions as his father boss.
ReplyDeleteWe no longer live in Russia - Boruch Hashem
In the life of the Rebbe Chabad in Churz Laaretz NEVER protested
ReplyDeleteNOT about Sfardi children sent to anti fru kibbutzim
NOT about forced autopsies
NOT about Mi HeHudi
NOT about returning Sinai etc.
NOT about digging up graves for roads
NOT about allowing Mamzerim to marry
NOT about allowing s-x shops
NOT about allowing Russian non jews into Israel as jews
NOT to give Yeshivas equal funding as Arab universities
NOT to stop government Chillul Shabbat
NOT against the Oslo accords
NOT against returning Sinai
NOT against Chametz sold on Pesach
NOT against Movies being open in Jerusalem on Shabbat
NOT against Pruzot on Rechov Hayarkon
NOT against the immodest conduct between male and female soldiers in the army
NOT against allowing Missionaries to operate
NOT for the release of Russian Jewry
NOT against a football stadium playing on shabbos in Jerusalem and the list goes on and on.
While most chareidi groups have worked extremely hard to overcome these issues, many causing a real danger to the ruchniut of Jews in Eretz Yisrael but the derech of Chabad directed by the Rebbe was never to protest not in Israel and definetly not in Chutz Laaretz. Even political parties like Agudat Yisrael who campaign extremly hard for these issues especially Shabbat and to have conversions, Weddings and divorces only according to Halacha the Rebbe never agreed to get involved. As demonstrating was something the Rebbe totally rejected.
[The fact is that none of your colleagues being other Lubavitch Rabbis or Independent ones have supported this demonstration.]
ReplyDeleteNot so. My mother just spoke to Rebbetzin Groner, who says that Rabbi YD Groner will be attending the rally. Furthermore, Rabbi Mottel Gutnick has retracted his disapproval of the rally—and rightly so.
[The issue is not only that the demonstration is absolutely useless]
But as one cannot know that for certain, since there is a chance that it may help, it behoves one to cry out—that's the Rebbe's HALACHIC opinion, as cited above.
[the more important issue is the public perception that religious Jews are against the Israeli Government.]
that's a KIDDUSH Hashem
This is not "the Israeli Government," but a cowardly act of treachery and collaboration with vicious murderers, punishing bravery and loyalty to Torah and rewarding suicide slaughterers.
Even in the Israeli lawbooks not too long ago, it was said that it is a crime to give land to the enemy. They've even sold their secular values. It is certainly forbidden according to the timeless, universal Torah law binding on all Jews. And the non-Jews ought to know this.
[I realise that the vast majority do not agree with the demonstration against relocating the Jews from Gaza ... but many people might think that these demonstrators are a true indication of the views of the public. This must not happen.]
oh, if only it would! unfortunately, though, the chances of that are low—we can only pray
[(to ensure a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisrael) ]
this is the first I've heard of this pretext
[ Dear Rabbi Oliver if you would come to my home and sit in my Tzedoka box you would realise that you do not know everything that is going on in each home. ]
I did not mean to imply that no one is doing anything at all, but that the response through any means, whether protest, or increase in good deeds and tefilla is by far not commensurate with the severity of the situation. Kol hakavod for your personal efforts! But don't keep it to yourself and your family—inspire others to do the same.
[who are we to judge which Jew may be quietly doing teshuvah, or crying out to Hashem during tefillah, or giving tzedakah. As a Rabbi you must surely know that things are often not as they appear, and there are people who care very deeply about this issue who prefer to act on it without making a loud noise in the streets, and this does not neccessarily indicate that they are apathetic. ]
as I said above, the Rebbe said to cry out in public protest
I certainly do not mean to belittle actions of individuals, but just that if it's done "bechadrei chadorim"—in private, then it's not having an effect on the community, and the community as a whole is not uniting for the Jews of Gush Katif and the other threatened settlements, who are very encouraged by our PUBLIC support, as I know after speaking to one of them.
[ Your example of Miriam does not resonate with me. I fail to see how it applies to our present situation. They were all tzadikim and I do not believe Miriam 'protested' like these local orange people are doing ]
My purpose in referring to Miriam was to emphasise that the onus lies on every individual to become involved with protesting somehow, not just with the religious leaders, and that the Rebbe was addressing everyone when he said to protest, inasmuch that everyone is able to protest in one form or another, even little girls like Miriam.
[ without derech eretz or ahavas yisroel ]
When did I imply to protest without Derech Eretz or Ahavas Yisroel? Protest respectfully!
[To set the record straight--I am also against the evacuation. I am also a follower of the Rebbe and I am a believer in his principles of shalaymah haeretz. We differ on the tactics and method of protest. ]
Yes, and I am still waiting for your reference to a sicha where the Rebbe qualified that his words were directed only to "political leaders." And out of curiosity, how much activity have the nay-sayers on this thread organised in terms of applying pressure on political leaders, if that's what they think that ought to be done?
[in front of the goyim ]
[From the point of view of the goyim, they will not see this demo as a repudiation of of a corrupt government. The goyim, in my view, do not differentiate between Jews, they see us as one whole entity. From their point of view, they will see that Jews are fighting Jews--period, end of story.
Yes, silence is consent, but our voices should only be used when they will have an effect--and that is not to the goyim in the Diaspora, but among ourselves and in Eretz Yisroel itself, where this issue will ultimately be resolved.
Furthermore, the goyim do not see Sharon as a dictator rather, Israel is perceived as the only democracy in the Mid East. It is not enough to be correct in your political views but, if one is wise, one must also ask oneself when one makes public political statments how these statements will be received by the public.]
indeed
Yet again, the concern for "how the non-Jews will react?" We turn as always to the Torah’s timeless teachings for guidance, and we need not look very far. Rashi, the foremost commentator on the Torah, IN HIS VERY FIRST COMMENT, spells it out clearly. If the gentile nations approach you and accuse you of robbing them of the Land of Israel, respond by proudly declaring that G-d created the entire world, and is thus entitled to give it to whomever He deems worthy. He chose to grant it as an eternal inheritance to the Jewish people, and nothing can change that. Don't acknowledge their claim at all.
Thus, proudly declaring before the non-Jews that the land is ours because of Divine mandate is a KIDDUSH Hashem according to Rashi—a comment of Rashi that no religious Jew, never mind a follower of the Rebbe, can be excused for not knowing.
[Think how they will distort this. Think how they will twist and turn all this until the original message becomes completely lost. All the media will report is that Jews are fighting Jews, and that the Jewish people are divided, and they and all the anti-Semties will relish this negative publicity.]
Think about how the media, particularly the pro-expulsion AJN, will twist your letters to them opposing the protests. They will cast this as a support for the disengagement! So why are you writing letters to them, if you declare that anything you say to them will be distorted to our detriment??
[Nothing good can come from this, nothing at all. It will only make matters worse.]
The Rebbe: "....When the Torah says, "You shall not stand idly by your brother’s blood," it does not mean, that you are only required to involve yourself when you are certain that your efforts will be successful. Rather, even if there is only a slim chance — even only the slightest of chances — that you will succeed in your protest being heard, you must do this, for it is the unequivocal ruling of the Code of Jewish Law!"
[How can Rabbi Mottel Gutnick's comments cause you pain and distress]
It pained me that he apparently opposed those doing what the Rebbe said to do vis a vis public protest, but it's ok, he's since retracted and recanted, so you'll be glad to hear that now I feel somewhat better. :)
[he together with every single other Rabbi does not support Street protests in front of Goyim which the Rebbe was very clearly against]
nope, not true, again: both he and Rabbi YD Groner support the protests
and I'm yet to be referred to the source for this alleged opposition of the Rebbe to protests (not related to Russia)
[769 said...
All the prophecies of doom and gloom of what will happen now that Gush Katif is being evacuated were also said when the late Menachem Begin gave back Sinai and Yamit. All the scaremongering turned out to be hog wash! ]
Uh, and you call yourself a Lubavitcher? Do you realise how vehemently the Rebbe opposed and screamed (literally) numerous times at great length over that "chok ha'umlal," (Rebbe's expression) saying that it has endangered Jewish lives, and it was the start of all the intifada later (and by extension, the terrorism of today)?? Perhaps reread the Rebbe's talks on the matter, you can choose one at random even. The sefer is called "Karasi Ve'Ein Oneh," 2 volumes.
Rabbi Motel Gutnick gave a public statement against the street protest and so far has not retacted from it.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Y.D. Groner was begged to endorse or support the demonstration he refused. I do not believe he will attend the street march, time will tell. But since when is Oliver the spokesperson for Rabbi GRONER OR Rabbi GUTNICK?
You are twisting the Rebbes words: TO Protest and to Demonstrate by marching in Melbourne ARE 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. Maybe thats how your name Oliver Twist originated!
If G-D wants the Jews to be in Gush Katif the Jews will be in Gush Katif. The only Jews today in Israel spilling my brothers blood are the Orange extremists. SO I am not standing by, but Rabbi Oliver is.
ReplyDeleteHello you bunch of ignorants! Noone is protesting. No one is demonstrating. Therefore noone is going against the Rebbe's words! The "orange people" are simply having EMPATHY with the Gush Katif victims. Its a peaceful street walk not a protest march! Before you believe every false rumour,see the comments of an "Orange History Teacher" at the other blog on this website !
ReplyDeleteWho is displaying more passion and commitment towards Gush Katif? The Orange men or their detractors? It's not sufficient to be a Lubavitcher in your heart.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason people can cause "sfeykos" in what the Rebbe said, is that they are Ba'alei t'shuva, never heard the Rebbe screaming about these issues, and their whole knowledge comes from highlights clips from Motzo'ei shabbos in shul. Yehoishophot quoted the Rebbe's words, while all his detractors have to offer is they they are "yode'a da'as elyon".
I spoke to Rabbi Motel Gutnick last night and he has not recanted one bit from his original opinion. He said he would endorse a gathering of dvrei Torah and tefillah (a rally) but not a street demonstration. That is what he said initially in his written opinion and that is what he is sticking to.
ReplyDeleteThe local organizers had an effect on this community and it has not been a positive one. They have alienated many people to our cause with thier filthy vile emails,
their rude strident fanaticism, their juvenile destructive tactics and their narrow mindedness. This protest has become a farce and as a person who is on the right wing of the fence I feel that they have done more to hurt our cause than to help it.
It is bad form and Rabbi Oliver is extremely presumptous to put in writing on this blog that Rabbi Gutnick has retracted his opinion on this matter. I do not believe it is derech eretz for one Rabbi to speak for another. No one has seen a retraction in writing.
Rabbi Oliver does not, according to his comment above, recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli government. That is totally ridiculous and an irresponsible position for a Rabbi to take. One could call it anarchistic.
As for my letter in the AJN, there is no way it could have been distorted as being pro-disengagement. Please reread it because obviously you misse dout whole parts of it or were not paying attention.
I cannot and will not be able to get into a scholarly argument with you because it goes beyond my level of Torah learning. But there is the fifth Shulchan Aruch called common sense that I feel you are not applying to this issue.
Wake up to the real world.
I am sure you will agree the same mindless groupthink of the Yechniks is at play with the Melbourne orange activists.
ReplyDeleteI am suspicious of and fear the mob.
Don’t like mob mentality—it is dangerous.
Don’t like crowds, don’t like chaotic mobs of people in the streets, especially religious Jews.
The mob tend to takes on a character of its own--usually consisting of mindless hysteria with never a constructive purpose or goal.
This demo on July 19th has a lot of potential to turn into a chilul Hashem (G-d forbid).
Imagine all the flags you can choose from now—you have yellow Moshichist flags and orange activist flags.
You have a great variety of bumper stickers too—yechi ones and Gush Katif ones.
Gee, it’s a whole new cottage industry! A virtual rainbow of Jewish expression! (sarcasm meant
And a friend of mine teaches as Yavneh. She told me the kids are getting all hyped up and looking forward to the demonstration as an exciting night out on the town. She heard them talking and planning some wild behaviour.
It bothers me that young people, who have lots of untapped energy and are often idealists, are being manipulated like this. It also bothers me that there is not person of any real stature supervising all this, that there is no one with either Rabbinic credentials or educators that will involved. It also bothers me that they are using ‘bread and circus” approaches, by offering a live band, food, a woopy night in the streets to attract people. It is transparent that they are just trying to draw crowds to make noise.
A friend of mine was woken up late the other night because a bunch of young people were near her window putting up those orange signs you will now see plastered all over town. They were loud and inconsiderate, hanging out, laughing etc, and as she told me they were acting as if it were not a late hour.
Shouldn’t this have a more serious tone? A night of Torah and tehillim emphasising achdus and shalom would have been good. Instead this is seen as party time in Melbourne for a lot of young people.
Shosh
For Rabbi Oliver to attack the opinion of a senior Rabbi and then to falesly say the "anti street demonstration statement" was withdrawn shows he can not be trusred as is an embarresment to the Rabbinate!
ReplyDeleteAlthough I am not a Lubavitcher nor religious it seems that he is quoting out of context the Lubavitch Rebbi. I do not recall the community ever being involved in a street demonstration and definetly not against israel.
From Yehoishophot Oliver:
ReplyDelete<< [How can Rabbi Mottel Gutnick's comments cause you pain and distress]
It pained me that he apparently opposed those doing what the Rebbe said to do vis a vis public protest, but it's ok, he's since retracted and recanted, so you'll be glad to hear that now I feel somewhat better. :) >>
As far as I know Rabbi Gutnick hasn't "retracted and recanted". He sent me the email which I published on this blog and he hasn't told me that he has changed his mind. If you have some sort of proof please let me know or have Rabbi Gutnick write and tell me so himself.
Maybe Rabbi Oliver is getting confused with a protest Rally like in Werdiger Hall and an irresponsible street march!
ReplyDeleteThe same as using the Holocaust for cheap political points is disgusting so is it to use the Rebbe. I have just spoken to my Rabbi a very learned Lubavitcher Chosid who claims that Rabbi Oliver is totally misquoting THe Rebbe and the Rebbe never allowed public protests. Could we get anunbiased level headed Rabbi who can accuretly tell the Chabads community the wishes of their Rabbi. To me Rabbi Oliver cannot be trusted any longer.
ReplyDeleteI hear that the Rabbis with orange beards will be leading the street demonstration!
ReplyDeleteTo Orange victim! I am more relaxed reading your comments than most other pro orange comments!
ReplyDeleteThey claim the Rebbe was for street demonstration.
They claim whoever is against this childish street demonstration is pro Arab and a Jew Hater.
They want to jam the phones of the Israeli Embassy. They lie in the name of Rabbi M. Gutnick. They preach "brothers blood" etc. They use Holocaust symbols which is a disgrace. Misquoting the Rebbe. Calling Sharon a dictator. Not recognizing that Israel is a democracy.
These are some of the reasons that many people who are against the disengagement, including my family will have nothing to do with tonights activities. These orange fanatics have hijacked a noble cause.
You keep saying that "the Rebbe was against us participating in public political demonstrations", but repeating it doesn't make it true. What evidence have you for this assertion? A single quote, from a sicha, a letter, something. As far as I can tell, the Rebbe was against public demos against the USSR, and he gave his reason - that they would provoke the communists to make things worse for the Jews under their control, and would not help at all. Now a demo in Melbourne is extremely unlikely to help the situation in Israel, but I don't see how it could possibly make it worse. Sharon may be a wicked collaborator, but I've seen no evidence that he's so vindictive as to react to a demo in Melbourne by taking out his anger on those under his control; he's almost certain simply to ignore it. What does he care what people in Melbourne think? I don't know whether he can even find Melbourne on a map.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, there is one good thing a demo can achieve - precisely to let the goyim know that the Jews are not Sharon's puppets, that the Jews in Melbourne do not support the suicidal policies of the present Israeli government,and that it's OK for them to oppose those policies too. Goyim who are sympathetic to the Jews are constrained by a feeling that they can't be more Catholic than the Pope, and if the Prime Minister of Israel supports a "Palestinian" state and uprooting "settlements" then how can they oppose these things? A public demo might have the effect of encouraging these people to express their own opinion and support.
Millhouse, read Rabbi Motel Gutnick's opinion again and it will answer your questions.
ReplyDeleteIt's heating up in EY now. Thosuands of demonstrators and thousands of police around and going towards Gaza. This is potentially explosive.
ReplyDeleteWe all need to daven and plead to Hashem that no Jew, on either side of the issue, no settler, and no police officer, and no soldier, gets hurt, or G-d forbid worse.
No matter which side is correct, we are all Yidden and we must maintain the peace and social order between us.
We do not live in Israel- This is the opinion of most Israelis!
ReplyDeleteA campaign against the state
The Yesha Council of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza is supposed to launch its march on Gush Katif today - a march that is meant to thwart the decision to disengage from the Gaza Strip that was made by the state's authorized institutions. Thousands and perhaps tens of thousands of settlers, yeshiva students and other disengagement opponents have been recruited for the march. The plan calls for them to proceed by vehicle and on foot to the Kissufim checkpoint in order to break through either it or the fence around the Strip and thereby reach the Gush Katif settlements, and then remain there to organize themselves as an opposition force to the evacuation on August 17.
According to Yesha Council members, the march is not supposed to involve clashes with soldiers and policemen or violence of any sort. But this is a hollow and, in fact, deceptive promise. The Yesha leaders know very well, from their experience with similar demonstrations, that violence is implicit in their plans: When masses of demonstrators stand face to face with forces charged with preserving order, violence will be virtually unavoidable. The marchers will try to force policemen and soldiers to fail in their mission by ignoring their orders, verbal provocation, physical pressure and a massing of forces - and these will necessarily lead to physical clashes, the likes of which have already caused injuries and are liable to cause deaths.
The Yesha Council is not waging a campaign for Gush Katif, but a campaign against the State of Israel. That is the true meaning of the attempt to ignore the decision made by the cabinet and Knesset, which was upheld by the Supreme Court. All the excuses offered by Yesha Council spokesmen, which use ideas from Jewish, Zionist and settlement movement history, cannot blur the truth: The intention here is to give priority to, and to impose on the majority through violent means, an ideology accepted only by the minority, and which is liable to lead to a national disaster. This attempt has already led to the first cracks in national unity in the form of refusal by religious soldiers to obey their commanders' orders, even if thus far their numbers are small. As the Yesha Council's campaign continues, the cracks are
In this situation, there is no way to avoid high-flown language: The fate of the State of Israel once more rests in the hands of the security services. But this time, their mission is not to defend the state from external enemies, but to block an effort from within to impose decisions on the state that were not made democratically. To thwart this dangerous attempt, every means necessary to ensure success must be used, beginning with giving public backing to Israeli Defense Forces commanders and soldiers and the police - astonishingly, no such expressions of support have yet been heard from most of the cabinet ministers whose decision is at stake - and ending with employing means to block the march the moment it becomes illegal.
So far, the police and the IDF have coped with violent demonstrators with empty hands, out of a desire not to escalate the dispute. But faced with the masses that are threatening to break through the fences, there may be no choice but to use crowd-dispersal equipment, just as the police and army do on other occasions. The danger to the state reflected in the march on Gush Katif is no smaller, and in practice is even greater, than the danger posed by other demonstrations that the security forces have been forced to handle.
Which newspaper is this from? It sounds like an editorial or opinion piece not a news story.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately opinions on all things in Israel are polarised. There is very little middle ground. Let's hope that sanity prevails on both sides.
Gaza settler says willing to become Palestinian citizen
ReplyDeleteBy Reuters
Jewish settler Avi Farhan, determined not to give up his home overlooking the sea when Israel quits the occupied Gaza Strip, is looking into becoming a Palestinian.
"I have met with Palestinians. I am willing to be a test case for peace and take up Palestinian citizenship," Farhan told Reuters. "It will hurt me to give up my Israeli citizenship, but I want to remain here."
One Palestinian official suggested he might be allowed to stay in Gaza - home to 1.4 million Palestinians - as long as he obeyed Palestinian laws. Actual citizenship could only be decided on an individual basis and any applicant would have to meet the same conditions as anyone else.
Ordinary Gazans have long viewed the 8,500 settlers in the territory as bitter enemies living on land they want for a state.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon plans to give up all 21 Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip as well as four of 120 in the West Bank in what he bills "disengagement" from conflict with the Palestinians. Withdrawals start next month.
Farhan, a Libyan-born Jew who left Tripoli for Israel at the age of three in the wake of the 1948 war at Israel's creation, said seven families were willing to stay in the mostly secular Gaza settlement of Elei Sinai after Israeli troops leave.
Farhan, 59, helped establish Elei Sinai after being forced to leave the Sinai settlement of Yamit in 1982. Like the West Bank and Gaza, Israel captured Sinai in the 1967 war, but returned it to Egypt under a peace deal.
"I fled from Tripoli, endured the displacement camps in Israel, and then I was kicked out of Yamit. Today I won't be a refugee again. I have no strength," said Farhan, a restaurant owner. "The Israeli government says it is concerned for my security if I stay here. I will worry about my own safety."
A senior Israeli official dismissed Farhan's bid as a "gimmick" by settlers trying to save their homes.
He said settlers would not be safe in Gaza, where they currently come under frequent mortar and rocket fire, but did not say if Israel would prevent them staying on as Palestinians.
"Let's be realistic. They are currently under attack. What will happen to them when we are not there?" the official said.
Most settlers have pledged to remain in Gaza until they are evacuated, and few contemplate remaining afterward.
But a Palestinian official said they would be welcome.
"Unlike Zionism which is religiously exclusive, Palestinian nationalism is not," said Diana Butto. "So if these settlers wish to come in and be subject to Palestinian law, then of course we welcome them."
At least a fifth of the population of Israel is made up of Arabs, many of whom are Muslims and identify themselves as Palestinians. They have constitutional rights, but complain of institutionalised discrimination.
Palestinian and Israeli officials have already agreed to raze the settler homes to make way for high rise apartments.
Some other Elei Sinai settlers including Farhan's 25-year-old son Ofer and Yossi Berebi, said they were willing to take their chances and were not afraid of the Palestinians.
"If the state of Israel is ready to give me up, I am ready to give it up," said Berebi.
But Itzik Yamin, 51 and also from Elei Sinai, remained sceptical about a future for settlers in Gaza after the pullout.
"I think the hate is too deep to make it possible for us to live together," he said.
Fom Israel National News on July 18, 2005:
ReplyDeletePoll figures:
62% are against insubordination to the IDF
14% polled say insubordination to the IDF is legitimate
13% polled say inusbordination to IDF is partially legitimate
10% are undecided.
This source, INN,(Arutz Sheva) is not what one would call pro-disengagement.
Golda wrote above,that other Rabbis besides Rabbi M Gutnick have not made a statment re the local demo because as she wrote 'they do not feel worthy to state the Rebbe's view." How does she know this? Did she ask these Rabbis if this is so? How can she speak on behalf of Rabbis? She is even presumptous enough to name them-Rabbi Cohen, Rabbi Levin, Reb Arol, and Rabbi Kievman.
ReplyDeleteMy point is that Nshei Chabad as an organisation has no right to pretend to represent the views of all Chabad women. Individuals are entitled to their views, but Nshei, by announcing the demo, is taking a stand as an organisation THAT MANY OF ITS MEMBERS DO NOT AGREE WITH!!! That is not at all democratic nor is it fair. In fact, it is chutzpah.
IS THERE ANY OTHER ORGANISATION IN MELBOURNE OTHER THAN NSHEI WHO HAVE ENDORSED THIS STREET MARCH?
ReplyDeleteNone.
ReplyDeleteWho are the leaders of Nshei and does anyone know how they came to the conclusion to back a street demonstration that the Rebbe was ALWAYS against?
ReplyDeleteI have an email from New York of 73 Demonstrations during the life of the Rebbi for causes to preserve Torah and Yiddishkeit that Chabad did not participate in!
ReplyDeleteApparently Rabbi Groner was against participating in a protest organised by Adass in front of the German Consulate to save an ancient cemetry from being dug up in Germany. He apparently said that the Rebbe is against demonstrations!
ReplyDeleteThe so-called "leaders" of Nshei are representing only themselves although they pretend they are the spokeswomen for all Chabad women in Melb. How ironical from people who revile Sharon for not being democratic enough!
ReplyDeleteThat was years ago! Recently there was an enormous rally in Tel Aviv to promote the observance of Shabbat. What was the policy of Chabad regarding this rally?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Oliver claims that the Rebbe said to protest against the Oslo accords. Could someone remind me what was done in Melbourne against Oslo as per wishes of the Rebbe?
ReplyDeleteZalman-good poin. Why wasn't their any demos in Melb against the giveaway of Sinai? Why didn't the Rebbe instruct anash to take to the streets and march back then?
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Oslo has been ongoing now for over a decade. Where have all these Melb orange people been up until now? Why the big tumult now? Isn't it a bit of "too little too late"?
Do you think the Rebbe would be happy to see bloodshed between settlers and soldiers?
I dont think Rabbi Groner was against the protest before the German consulate. But he wouldn't put his signature to it and he belived the rebbe was against such things. Of course all the other melb Chabad rabbis had no such qualms and the demo went ahead [and was successful in halting the detsruction of that historic Jewish cemetery in Germany]
ReplyDeleteI have mishpocho Ger chassidim who tell me that when their rebbe organised a mass protest in Tel Avib recently against chilul shabbat - every single grouping of orthodxy joined in..except...Chabad!
ReplyDeleteThey don't believe in demos!
Why is a strip of land where those being thrown out ar being compensated with hundreds of thousands of dollars more important that the holy shabbat?
It seems that Rabbi Mottel HAS changed his mind. According to some organisers he and Rabbi Groner will attend the protest in way way or other.
ReplyDeleteLet's hope that there is no more 'mind-changing' before the actual march.
The above comment is a total lie!
ReplyDeleteI have it on good authority that Rabbi M Gutnick will not be attending the rally tonight.
ReplyDeleteI can only assume that the people who keep saying it is are trying to lend legitimacy to their cause.
All the orange supporters will be busy tonight so they won't have time to make comments on this blog. But we should expect more comments from them tomorrow, after they get over their big night!
ReplyDeleteAs Rabbi Oliver reminded us that the Rebbe instructed us not to remain silent in the time of a sakana!
ReplyDeleteI work at Yeshiva and was instructed to keep silent but that is the opposite what the Rebbe wants.
THE YESHIVA ADMIN. RECEIVED A CALL FROM A persom with a muslim middle eastern accent giving death threats against people at yeshiva due to tonights protest against leaving Gaza.
May Hashem protect all of Kllal Yisroel from reshoim.
We need Moshiach now!
Seeing teenage boys and girls in orange T Shirts hanging balloons together,onto the Yeshiva shule just shows we have lost the plot.
ReplyDeleteTo make up lies like Rabbi Gutnick is marching is only as small white lie compared to many other statements regarding what the Rebbe wanted, what Sharons policy is and what will happen.
ReplyDeleteTIME WILL TELL!
The israeli flag hanging on the fence in front of yeshiva shul!
ReplyDeleteWWTRS?
[What Would the Rebbe Say?]
And the girls dancing and singing at the tops of their voices!
ReplyDeleteThere was not even 10 non Lubavitchers there. This protest was the flop of all flops!
Hi, AS A MATTER OF CHINIUCH: Im very confused as to what the Rebbe's stance regarding demonstrations! Where? When? and about what seem to relavent issues? AD MOSA you said you had an email of 73 times where Chabad did not deomonstrate? Could you please post it? As well, if someone wouldnt mind briefly compiling why the Rebbe said not to demonstate? In particular what the Rebbe would say regarding Gush Katif as it is a matter of life and death and thus differs from other cases where demonstrating might be apt?
ReplyDeleteP.S. Someone early on the post mentioned a name of one of the rally organisers and how destructive he was! From someone involved in the "religous youth scene" I find it really disguting and disconcerting that adults can stoop to a level to actually mention names of people on a public website, Jews should shed other Jews in a favourable light! What kind of an example are you setting TO ME?!
The orange people have made fun of themselves, the kids have had their fun, our girls sang and danced in front of our Yeshivas Oholei Yosef Yitzchok, the Israeli flags were all over the shule together with the orange and Moshiach flags, there were more adults across Yeshiva calling for Disengagement than adults against disengagement!
ReplyDeleteSO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE??
AUTHENTIC LUBAVITCH said...
ReplyDeleteSO WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE??
Back to selling coats, I suppose...
(Anyone have any idea what we do with those horrible orange scarves, and rags?)
{Why is a strip of land where those being thrown out ar being compensated with hundreds of thousands of dollars more important that the holy shabbat?}
ReplyDeleteOr you could ask farkert: where were all the other "leaders of our generation" when the Rebbe spoke about the dangers of Camp David, Oslo, etc.
Many Gedolim believe that the decision should be based upon what the experts say is the best for Pikuach Nefesh. Just as we should ask the medical specialist the correct way to treat the patient so we do what the defence experts say. As well someone explained on an earlier comment that Shabbat,irreligious kibbutzim etc. steal our neshoma, which is a ruchniyos (spiritual) danger which is more important to a gashmiyos (physical) danger! As if a person looses his ruchniyos he looses both worlds!
ReplyDeleteNote: This is not my personal opinion!
Could Rabbi Oliver please explain why he said that Rabbi M. Gutnick and Rabbi YD Groner will participate!
ReplyDeleteIS IT CORRECT THAT THERE WERE NOT EVEN TEN NON lUBAVITCHER ADULTS AT THE RALLY LAST NIGHT?
Issadore David said...
ReplyDeleteOr you could ask farkert: where were all the other "leaders of our generation" when the Rebbe spoke about the dangers of Camp David, Oslo, etc.
>>>
Obviously they thought differently.
After all, with the greatest respect, the rebbes concerns on giving back Sinai turned out to be unfounded and we have seen several decades of relative peace with Egypt - the country that was israel's most dangerous enemy until then.
So maybe the 'leaders of the generation' were again prepared to give peace a chance.
(And you will now agree that the rebbe's praise and admiration for Sharon were also misplaced...No?
If Moshe Rabbeinu made a mistake isn't the Rebbe also allowed to?
ReplyDeletesome facts about the rally
ReplyDelete1. attendance about 600 men and women although mostly yeshivah beth rivkah students.
2. Rabbi groner senior was there for about 2 minutes during the tehillim
3. Rabbi M Gutnick is in sydney for his nepehw (reb moishes son) bar mitzvah when he was contacted he encourged attendenc for the tehillim/divrei chizuk part of the rally.
4. Overall it did seem acheive some goood. although perhasps a more unity orientated evening. IE Less confrontational would have had a greater impact.
5. It is clear alot of effort went into the event and yasher koach to the organisors such as elkman and co who i know for a fact are sencere and non confrontational. They will be the first to admit that they probably slightly mishandled the event and wold do things differently but i have no doubt they mean well and in their zechus five hundered people said tehillim for eretz yisroel, surely thats not a bad thing!
6. the debate about the lubavitcher rebbes opinion protesting vi street demonstations is as old as the hills. There is no CONCLUSIVE proof that the rebbe encourged it nor is there CONCLUSIVE proof discouraging it. Logical conclusion: Lets focus our efforts on things we know CONCLUSIVLY the Rebbe and Hashem do want. Teshuvah tefillah tzedikoh mivtzoim etc etc.
or am i being too old fashioned???
To simple Jew.
ReplyDeleteIf the organisers would have kept away from any comparesent to Holacaust and not had a street march I belive there would have been 3 times as many people there. Also the orange, food, band etc. took away from the serious of the issue. Many people told they would have come if it would have been organised somewhat defferently. Also some of the younger organisers upset many people!
GOOD NEWS! I have it on disreputable authority that as a result of the rally the DISENGAGEMENT HAS BEEN CALLED OFF!
ReplyDeleteBoruch Hashem!
ReplyDeleteIt seems tat Orange has a special Koach!
Simple Jew, recitation of tehillim is positive but, girls singing loudly in a public mixed setting?
ReplyDeleteIsraeli flags displayed on the Rebbe's mosod?
The Rebbe would never have allowed it. Shame on the Rabbinical leadership which has the authority yet did not excercise it. They have shown that they are all too willing to compromise on essential Lubavitch ideals and on halacha as well. How are we expected to respect them? How can we trust them to educate our youth? What do they stand for?
How can any of this be condoned?
The organizers must also take repsonsibility for bringing this chilul Hashem about.
This entire episode highlights the inner chaos of our community. Lack of direction, lack of proper Chabad education, lack of Torah guidance,.....this kehilah is desecending further and further into an abyss...and all while invoking the Rebbe's name...G-d help us!
I am an amateur history buff. There are many parallels between what is happening now in the world and the geopolitical situation in the 1930’s. A handful of world leaders, most notably Winston Churchill, exerted themselves in vain for many years to warn the Western powers against the Hitlerian threat. Churchill was a voice in the wilderness and suffered psychological depression over his futile attempt to awaken his countrymen. By the time they woke up it was too late and World War II became inevitable. As we all know, sadly, the rest is history.
ReplyDeleteToday there are a few voices in the wilderness, both within and outside of the Jewish world, who are trying in vain to warn the civilized world of the Arab threat. For years the governments of Israel and America have not shown by their actions that they grasp enormous danger the Islamic Fascists pose not just to the Jewish State but to modern civilization as we know it. The horrifying spectre of the Arab Nuclear Bomb is on the horizon and yet the Western Powers, including Israel, continue to choose to appease the Arab Fascists.
Why do intelligent people deny reality when it is staring at them in the face? Could it be that there is a Heavenly Decree that is creating this blindness?
Once, a Rabbi spoke to a crowd of Holocaust survivors. He told them that there was no reason to blame Hitler for the Shoah. He said that if Hashem had not decreed that the Shoah happen then it would not have, and that Hashem used Hitler as a tool as part of His master plan. This proved to be very difficult for this group of Holocaust survivors to swallow. They became angry at the Rabbi.
But wasn’t the Rabbi correct? If we believe that as it says in Torah ‘Hashem directs the hearts of Kings” and that all political events in the world are by Divine Providence, then was not the Rabbi correct? Do we not believe that everything comes from The Ribono Shel Olam?
The Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe was once asked why he did not do more to get Jews out of Europe before the Holocaust. He answered that Hashem had not shown it to him, that he was not given the ruach hakodesh to forsee this cosmic event. Hashem, not men, not even tzadikim, run the world.
And today we see that no matter how hard many Jews try, we cannot seem to stop the follies of the Israeli government. Today we see that even when the country elects the LION Arik, the greatest of all fearless and brave generals and patriots, this does not seem to help change the foolish policies of appeasement and surrender to the Arab Fascist anti-Semitic murderers.
This seems to me to indicate that like the pre-WWII period, there is a Kitrug (Heavenly Decree) that is making the Jewish leaders, and all the leaders of the civilized world, into blind self destructive fools. For as we know, how the Jews go is how the world will go. Today the front line is in Israel and then tomorrow it will be in Paris and San Fransisco.
This is not a poltical battle. This is a cosmic spiritual battle. This is a battle againt the sitra achra which is doing everything it can to deny us the geulah. The sitra achra knows its days are numbered and it has raised the stakes of the game.
I believe that we are witnessing the culmination of human history unfolding before our eyes in our times. And I believe that the only solution to this cosmic spiritual battle is through spiritual actions both on a microcosm and on a macrocosm. And I believe this is in accordance with the Rebbe’s teachings and that this is why he did not encourage political actions. Political actions serve only to feed into the sitra achra, since the sitra achra thrives on dissension and acrimony between Jews.
To change a great cosmic Heavenly Decree, we need to stay true to the teachings of the one who understood and knew about these matters better than ourselves---the Rebbe. To change this decree for the good we need to heed the directives of our tzadik who gave us all the guidelines and directives we need to bring geulah.
The massive spiritual revolution that the Rebbe put into motion around the world is still going and expanding with its full steam. We need to continue feeding into this holiness because only through increasing in holiness can we put an end to the negative effects of the stira achra. The Rebbe taught us that by increasing in Torah and mitzvots we bring the solution to all problems (the geulah) closer and we should not get distracted and be led off track by getting involved in superfluous matters such as politics. When there is holiness and teshuvah then there will be shalaymah haeretz.
Shoshanna Silcove
The above peace goes straight to the point. It must be words from the heart as these words go to the core of my heart. The sad part is that they should have been authored by Rabbi Groner!
ReplyDeleteThere is a long list that needs to be done by the Rebbes Shaliach before this!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletere ; death threat from caller with muslim accent. It was disgusting of you to deliberately make this false comment only a few hours before the event! A ploy to scare people away from attending. As some of the organisers, who were in touch with Police intelligence unit, can confirm this is a lie! its below the belt! Would the WebMaster please DELETE THAT COMMENT. If you are outraged about jamming the embassy phones, why is there no outrage about this?
ReplyDeleteIn answer to "NO EVIDENCE", there is not a shred of truth to anything on this blogspot. All comments are either anonymous or made on assumed names, so all are gutless. Anyone can start a false rumor about anything. Everything written here is a load of rubbish. Now lets get back to our Tehillim.
ReplyDeleteHey 'bloggers are guttless"-speak for yourself!
ReplyDeleteShoshanna Silcove, do you have the guts to identify yourself as the founder & administrator of this blogspot and website?
ReplyDeleteSHHH!! Don't talk so loud! Someone might hear you.
ReplyDeleteLook, there are no terrorists in Australia. None at all.
In fact, all the thousands of Arab Moslems living here are peace loving. There have never been any hints of attacks on Jews here let alone death threats.
And the police, who always tell the truth, would have told us if there were. (SARCASM OFF).
I am not the founder and administraotr of this blog site. I am now at my computer at work.
ReplyDeleteSorry to dissapoint you but
'Tis not I!
I went past YC last night and did not see any Israeli flag hanging up. Shoshana, you claim there was one there - did you actually see it?
ReplyDeletehey 'truth':
ReplyDeleteI write faster than most people can talk. And at work in between things, I can jab down a few lines.
I am a free lance writer. Do a quick google search under my name and you will see a few of the articles I have published.
But now you gave me a good idea. Maybe I should make my own blog? if so, it's content will be surprsing to you all.
To no evidence!
ReplyDeletePlease check with people working at the Yeshiva administration or with Gavin Quitt from CSG at JCCV if there was a death threat received at the Yeshiva office Friday before lunch. To be exact there were at least 2 death threats received. If I am low how much lower was the hierachy who put children and others at risk for there own political agenda.
To Mr No Evidence.
ReplyDeleteLet's make a deal! You name any Rabbi not affiliated with Yeshiva, on this blog and I will supply him my evidence. If I can you donate to Kollel Chabad $1,000 and if I cannot prove it I will donate $1,000 to Kollel Chabad.
Now things are getting interesting!
ReplyDeleteI have been asked by Shoshana to tell you that, apart from writing comments, she has nothing to do with this blog.
ReplyDeleteIf you seriously believe that this is her blog then you really don't know her.
Hey aussie echo,
ReplyDeletethanks for getting the record straight, but does that mean you know me well? Now I am really curious. Who are you?
I thought that everyone in Melbourne knows you!
ReplyDeleteThey may know of me but, only a very small number of people actually know me well.
ReplyDeleteI like it that way.
I just read on CNN that Dov Weisglas, spokesperson for the prime minister gave a statement:-
ReplyDelete"An emergency cabinet meeting was called late on Tuesday after hearing from the embassy in Canberra about the enormous mass demonstration held in Melbourne by the Meshiachists. News of the huge demonstration numbering many hundreds of thousands of Jews from all works of life, some with beards in wheelchairs screaming Never Again to Deportation. Cabinet has decided that all plans to Disengage from Gaza will be put on hold for 3 years. A referendum will be taken if all Palestinians should be deported from Gaza instead. The Prime Minister Mr Sharon together with the Foreign Affairs Minister Mr Peres will be leaving in approx. 90 minutes toi Washington to brief President George Bush of the Melbourne Demonstration. They will leave Washington Motzei Shabbat (Saturday night) to Canberra. From there they will be coming to Melbourne to personally apologize from Moishe, Saul, Aaron, Shlomo and young Joel. We will give an update as soon as further paticulars are available.
Good one - CNN!!!!
ReplyDeleteFrom CNN: 11PM ATLANTA
ReplyDeleteAn investigation is going on why there was a delay of 3 hours from the protest until the Ambassador in Canberra rang Prime Minister Sharon. Shabak claim there was some coats used to disrupt the embassy's phone system, but Australian Fedral Police have not confirmed it yet.
Mr No Evidence. Will you stand up to anonymous's bet!
ReplyDeleteCome on, don't chicken out- Put your money where your mouth is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are all waiting to see if it was a lie and bellow the belt.
After participating in both the march and the rally, I must say that both myself and my wife (and my son--we took our son along too, and died an orange ribbon to his pram, and he participated in the Mitzvah!) found that it was the most positive, inspiring, energising, uplifting experience! We were surrounded by people proud about being Jewish, proud about our right to the land and speaking out against the terrible danger chas vesholom, finally, proudly singing "Am Yisrael Chai, Gush Katif Chai!"
ReplyDeleteEspecially to be credited are the girls from Beth Rivkah who attended in a large turnout, and the women in general, who outnumbered the men! They are the Miriams of our day! Kol hakavod! Chizku ve'imtzu! The nashim tzidkaniyos will bring Moshiach!
And there was no violation of halacha because girls were singing in a group (though that's admittedly far from ideal, and it should certainly not be done on a regular basis, it's not assur) and many men were singing too.
anyway, info about the rallies in which chabadnikim are proudly involved:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell...d=1116728308201
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/578856.html
http://chabadnik.com/eng/item.asp?id=12575
http://www.shalomnewyork.com/galler...s.php?cat_id=65
and please sign this petition: http://www.PetitionOnline.com/NOTERROR/petition.html
new movie:
http://www.baitle.org/movie/seru.asx
"Yehoishophot, protesting and demonstration are not the same. The expression the Rebbe used was mecho."
ReplyDelete"To Protest and to Demonstrate by marching in Melbourne ARE 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS."
Demonstrating is a form of protest, like apples are a type of fruit.
"the activities of the Orange people are only supported by children"
Yup! "Heim hikiruhu techila" by Kerias Yam Suf, and so too by the Geu'la!
"Yes I am scared to identify myself. I am scared of fanatics. I am scared of extremists. I am scared of zealots. I have spoken or communicated with Moishe, Aaron, Saul and Joel and believe me they have absolutely no idea of the complexity of the issues, all they are doing is having a spoilt child mentality with no regard of the consequences."
Come ON! These are just sincere people, standing up proudly for what the Torah teaches. Please don't demonise them and cast them as people who would come and vandalise your house or the like, which is what you apparently imply, because they're not! So you have nothing to fear, and you ought to have enough guts to identify yourself.
"Does Oliver agree with jamming phones of the Israeli embassy?"
I think you're totally twisting what was said. Their email was suggesting that numerous people voice their protest by calling the embassy. So many people ought to be calling that their lines may even become jammed. But that's not to say that the purpose of the mass calling was to jam the lines, to sabotage the embassy! That's not what was meant at all. Don't twist their words.
"Saying that Sharon is worse than Hitler?
That's exactly what Miriam said to Amram Gadol Hador: "your decree is worse than Paroah's decree!"
"Just read what 90% of the public say on these blogs and you will quickly realise that the activities of the Orange people are only supported by children and loonies."
Or perhaps it reflects on the people writing the blogs and the sorry state of Melbourne that its community members can say such things.
"The Rebbe says ARTICULATE YOUR POSITION not march with Bnei Akiva boys and Girls"
Nothing to worry about there, Bnei Akiva didn't march officially, to their shame. Their absence was conspicuous. At the rally I got talking with a guy involved in the march who turned out to be a madrich from Bnei Akiva. So why was weren't they participating officially? Because Bnei Akiva have some old policy not to get involved in "political" causes. And anyway, a large number of the madrichim there don't even oppose the expulsion. Feh! This is a Zionist organisation??
"Congratulation to Caulfield Shule for obeying the Lubavitcher Rebbe and having nothing to do with this demonstration."
Turns out it has nothing to do with "obeying the Lubavitcher Rebbe" (who said no such thing); they were told that it's a "security risk." Transl.: they chickened out.
"Did the Oslo Accord Protest that the Rebbe supported, start from Caulfield Shule or from Chaim Tzvi's Ohel Devora?"
Where did the Rebbe say to put Tefilin on people specifically on Carlisle St.? eyeroll
"When I studied in Crown Heights in the 70s I remember a protest by Satmar Chassidim in Manhattan against forced autopsies in Israel."
I don't douvt this report, but no proof can be deduced from that case, which it is different from the issue of declaring Jewish ownership of the Holy Land, which the Rebbe specifically called for us to publicise to the non-Jews in numerous talks.
"A word of clarification about this blog. It is not a community forum - it is a personal blog."
I disagree; referring to local community issues, with names of local personalities, makes it a local community forum.
"All I can see is that the non-political, respected talmidei chachamim Chabad rabbanim have not made any public statements"
well, they should
and the fact that they haven't proves nothing
that's the lesson from this week's parsha—Pinchas:
"There are things about which the leaders of the generation are silent, and this does not always prove that nothing need be done, and that calculation and scholarly reasoning must be used to slip one's way out of it. If one sees that he can do something, he must do it. The fact that those greater than him say nothing may be similar to the fact that Pinchas was granted the opportunity to slay Zimri in order to become a Kohen. This was HIS portion that he was destined to refine, and only by doing so could he reach personal perfection."
Likutei Sichos, Vol. 2, p. 342.
"ben shraga said...
If G-D wants the Jews to be in Gush Katif the Jews will be in Gush Katif."
So Jews should have taken such an attitude during the Holocaust?? They shouldn't have done whatever they could to save Jewish lives? This is one of the negative signs of the time before Moshiach: that people say "Ein lanu l'hisho'ein ela al Avinu She'bashamayim." [We can't rely on anyone but Our Father in Heaven.] I.e. giving up, chas veshalom.
"The only Jews today in Israel spilling my brothers blood are the Orange extremists."
You mean, the people standing up for the settlers' right to the.
"Issadore David said...
The only reason people can cause "sfeykos" in what the Rebbe said, is that they are Ba'alei t'shuva, never heard the Rebbe screaming about these issues, and their whole knowledge comes from highlights clips from Motzo'ei shabbos in shul. Yehoishophot quoted the Rebbe's words, while all his detractors have to offer is they they are "yode'a da'as elyon"."
thanks for your support, and for identifying yourself, though I'm not familiar with your name
Unfortunately, I think it's the reverse: most of the people who disapprove of the rally etc. are not ba'alei teshuva, and those who went are.
"It is bad form and Rabbi Oliver is extremely presumptous to put in writing on this blog that Rabbi Gutnick has retracted his opinion on this matter. I do not believe it is derech eretz for one Rabbi to speak for another. No one has seen a retraction in writing."
It's the report that I heard at the time, and I'm not inventing that. I wanted to publicise it before the rally immediately, though I hadn't verified it fully, so that people would not be discouraged from going, ch"v, which they were, r"l.
The gist of the conversation that took place with an organiser of the rally who wishes to remain unnamed, as it was reported to me after my investigation today, was that the way the questioner (Mr. "AussieEcho," apparently) worded the question, implied that the march was intended by its organisers to be aggressive and violent, and it was to that negative presentation that R' Gutnick gave a negative response in the letter. (Indeed, "AussieEcho," perhaps you could furnish us with the text of the email that you sent.)
The 2nd point was that R' Gutnick's email was never meant as a public declaration as it is being casted here, but as a clarification to an individual.
In any case--fine, I hereby retract my claim that R' Gutnick retracted his claim.
"Rabbi Oliver does not, according to his comment above, recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli government. That is totally ridiculous and an irresponsible position for a Rabbi to take. One could call it anarchistic."
really?
so directly causing severe physical danger, G-d forbid, to the entire populace of 5 million kein yirbu Jews living there, leading G-d forbid to ... that doesn't delegitimize the govt. there?? I guess if that doesn't according to you, nothing would.
"As for my letter in the AJN, there is no way it could have been distorted as being pro-disengagement."
but do you come out strongly against the expulsion?
"mindless groupthink ... is at play with the Melbourne orange activists. I am suspicious of and fear the mob. Don’t like mob mentality—it is dangerous. Don’t like crowds, don’t like chaotic mobs of people in the streets, especially religious Jews."
I don't think Torah categorically rules out using groups. Your use of the word mob is derogatory. Group energy, like any force, could be a force for good or the opposite.
we need to use it for kedusha
think of the videos of the Rebbe's farbrengens, and how uplifting it is to watch it, never mind for those who were there
"Be'rov am hadras Melech."
"This demo on July 19th has a lot of potential to turn into a chilul Hashem (G-d forbid)."
"Potential"? Before you said that it IS a chilul Hashem! So which is it?
As for your derogatory references to the colour orange: it's the colour that the settlers have chosen for themselves, so by wearing it you identify with their cause. If you don't wear it, that's also fine, but IMHO its not fair to speak in a disparaging way about people who simply mean to express their sincere support for the brave settlers.
"It bothers me that young people, who have lots of untapped energy and are often idealists, are being manipulated like this."
it makes me feel proud and encouraged that young people, and those young at heart, are using their idealism to follow the instruction of Shulchan Aruch and the Rebbe, as quoted above, for the benefit of the Jewish people, despite the scoffers, about which the Rebbe says, and his words are most apropos vis a vis certain posters here:
I am confident that he will continue in this path, increasing even further in disseminating the Noahide Code. It must be emphasized that "One should not be ashamed before the scoffers," as is written in the beginning and opening of the Shulchan Aruch, the Code of Jewish Law of the Jewish people. This principle obviously applies to non-Jews as well, for without this precondition, it is impossible to abide by G-d's law. In this world, a world of separation [i.e., concealment of divine unity], every good thing has its opponents and scoffers. Why did G-d create the world in this way? This was in order to reveal the greatness of the person who is undeterred by the scoffers, thus increasing his reward, for "According to the pain is the reward." [Chapters of the Fathers, 5:21]
Hisvaduyos 5745, Vol. 3, pp. 1840-1841.
"It is transparent that they are just trying to draw crowds to make noise."
You speak so cynically about such good, sincere people! The way you present it is simply not true.
If you'd take the time to speak to even one of the people protesting, you'd see that they're sincere and passionate about Shleimus Ha'aretz, and they're proudly expressing that; apparently that bothers you.
"Shouldn’t this have a more serious tone? A night of Torah and tehillim emphasising achdus and shalom would have been good."
uh, that's, like, exactly what it was?
it's too bad you weren't there to join in
and there was singing: is proudly singing "Gush Katif Chai" too lacking in seriousness for you? Not appropriate for the occasion?
"Rabbi Oliver is totally misquoting the Rebbe and the Rebbe never allowed public protests. Could we get an unbiased level headed Rabbi who can accurately tell the Chabads community the wishes of their Rabbi. To me Rabbi Oliver cannot be trusted any longer."
well, I've quoted the Rebbe
has HE?
Until I hear another solid source suggesting otherwise, I'm doing what the Rebbe said.
And on this topic, it is noteworthy that the Beis Din of Crown Heights have repeatedly called on the people of Crown Heights to go to PROTEST rallies. And that was an OFFICIAL pesak, to go because of pikuach nefesh. While in Seder in 770, I personally left it to go to these rallies because of that pesak.
As was the case with the recent rally there (from Shmais):
CHABAD CHASSIDIM ENERGIZE MANHATTAN RALLY
By Aliza Karp
Sunday afternoon, while Prime Minister Sharon was currying favor with the ‘court Jews,’ who were showing their allegiance to him… across the street was a crowd of three thousand people, listening to speeches, cheering and making their voices heard. More than half the crowd was Lubavitcher Chassidim.
I had the honor and pleasure to organize the children for Torah, Tefila and Tzedaka. Before the children began I briefly explained that Chabad Chassidim were attending the rally to publicize our commitment to the Halachic stance of active self-defense and that we would not remain silent as Sharon plans to put the lives of more than 5,000,000 Jews in danger, by retreating from strategic positions and empowering terrorists.
My first words were. “The Lubavitcher Rebbe.” Without giving me a chance to finish my sentence, the crowd cheered so loudly they could be heard for blocks around. I also explained the Rebbe’s initiative to have children lead in Torah, Tefiliah and Tzedakah.
When the crowd repeated every word of the 12 Psukim and We Want Moshiach Now, the response of the crowd could be heard for blocks around.
There were rabbis and dignitaries from an array of Jewish communities, including speakers from Gush Katif and the Shomron. Many of them spoke about what the Rebbe has said about Shlaimos HaAretz. Most of them spoke well and all were brief. The program moved along at a good speed, with chanting of ‘Not One Inch’ and other slogans, at intervals.
Rabbi Schwei, Member of the Crown Heights Beis Din, was in attendance but chose not to go to the podium. Everyone present agreed that Rabbi Yossi Jacobson of Crown Heights and Rabbi Aron Raskin of Brooklyn Heights spoke amazingly well.
The controversial Rabbi Tendler spoke only after it had been announced that the buses to Crown Heights would be leaving and, you might call it by chance, as he took the podium, it began to rain.
Meanwhile, to avoid embarrassment, Sharon left Baruch College by the rear entrance. (Of course it could have been for security reasons, but it is nice to think he was on the run.)
Organizers arrived early to set up the stage, signs and sound system, including a generator. They set up on the corner of Lexington and 23rd, as planned. This way the men would be on one street, the women on the other and the stage in the middle. After it was all set up, with police approval, the police changed their mind and had them move everything two more times. Regretfully, the final arrangement was adequate but not optimal. A third of the crowd participated from across Lexington Avenue. The police had underestimated the size of the crowd.
With such a large crowd, and such a noisy crowd, it drew a lot of media attention.
Rabbi Rapp, a major influence in bringing the Crown Heights community, was pleased and encouraged by the turn out. “We see that people are aware of the situation and they are not discouraged. They are excited to do everything they can to nullify the evil decree. With the strength of the people we will be saved from this disaster. Just as in the Purim story, when salvation came with a few words from Esther HaMalka, so will there be a miracle that will come and change our situation so that the evil decree will not be carried out.”
Tzvi Lang, Vice Chairman of the Crown Heights Community Council, who also worked to bring the community, was very moved by the participation of Chabad in the program. “The speeches were wonderful. It was a real Kiddush Lubavitch. The twelve Posukim cleared the atmosphere, along with We Want Moshiach Now. In addition to Lubavitchers, the crowd was mainly Modern Orthodox. They were very happy and pleased with our participation. Rabbis Yossi Jacobson and Aron Raskin were extremely impressive in their presentation and the messages they conveyed.”
And Rabbi Yeruslavski, of the Beis Din in Eretz Yisrael, marched in the rally in Eretz Yisrael:
Originally Posted by col.org.il
Following the siege imposed on Gush Katif today, Rabbi Yitzchak Yehudah Yeruslavski, secretary of the Lubavitch Rabbinical court that he and a group of additional Rabbis will arrive on Monday at 3:00 to the 'Heichal David' hall in Netivot, to participate in the rally opening the large march towards Gush Katif, with the slogan, "In Tribute to Our Courageous Brothers".
Rabbi Yeruslavski calls all Chabadniks to arrive to the rally in order to support its participants in this important cause. Nevertheless, he explains that it is of vital importance to stay alert and refrain from being lured by provocations and to abstain from violent behavior. "If the army and the police forces attempt to halt the march at any point, we must stand still and protest by this very act of standing, but under no circumstances should anyone use force or violence against soldiers or policemen", says Rabbi Yeruslavski.
http://www.col.org.il/show_news.asp?12850
"Meanwhile, there is one good thing a demo can achieve - precisely to let the goyim know that the Jews are not Sharon's puppets, that the Jews in Melbourne do not support the suicidal policies of the present Israeli government,and that it's OK for them to oppose those policies too. Goyim who are sympathetic to the Jews are constrained by a feeling that they can't be more Catholic than the Pope, and if the Prime Minister of Israel supports a "Palestinian" state and uprooting "settlements" then how can they oppose these things? A public demo might have the effect of encouraging these people to express their own opinion and support."
thankyou, well said!
"We all need to daven and plead to Hashem that no Jew, on either side of the issue, no settler, and no police officer, and no soldier, gets hurt, or G-d forbid worse."
uh, what about pleading to Hashem that the expulsion be cancelled??
"We do not live in Israel- This is the opinion of most Israelis!
A campaign against the state"
this is nothing but calculated DISINFORMATION from the left
the majority of the people are with the settlers
"Unfortunately opinions on all things in Israel are polarised. There is very little middle ground. Let's hope that sanity prevails on both sides."
uh, "both sides"?! you don't support the settlers?? Moral equivalence.
"My point is that Nshei Chabad as an organisation has no right to pretend to represent the views of all Chabad women. Individuals are entitled to their views, but Nshei, by announcing the demo, is taking a stand as an organisation THAT MANY OF ITS MEMBERS DO NOT AGREE WITH!!! That is not at all democratic nor is it fair. In fact, it is chutzpah."
so all their members must agree to something, or they can't do anything?
"IS THERE ANY OTHER ORGANISATION IN MELBOURNE OTHER THAN NSHEI WHO HAVE ENDORSED THIS STREET MARCH?"
"None."
shame
"The so-called "leaders" of Nshei are representing only themselves although they pretend they are the spokeswomen for all Chabad women in Melb. How ironical from people who revile Sharon for not being democratic enough!"
you can't compare, because the majority of Neshei indeed support the rally
"Could someone remind me what was done in Melbourne against Oslo as per wishes of the Rebbe?"
Uh, good morning? The situation in Melbourne leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to being consistent with the Rebbe. No proof from here.
"Do you think the Rebbe would be happy to see bloodshed between settlers and soldiers?"
Therefore the settlers should just leave?? Give in? Abandon their posts defending the land?? Do you realise what you're implying??
Anyway, they're not planning to resist violently, according to the speaker last night from Gush Katif.
"Why is a strip of land where those being thrown out are being compensated with hundreds of thousands of dollars"
Eretz Yisroel, Artzeinu HaKedosha, tibone vesikonen, is just "A STRIP OF LAND"?!
"I work at Yeshiva and was instructed to keep silent"
FEH
"Seeing teenage boys and girls in orange T Shirts hanging balloons together,onto the Yeshiva shule just shows"
... their Jewish pride, despite all the scoffers lemineihem
"There was not even 10 non Lubavitchers there."
I know, isn't it shameful that the Lubavitchers care about these matters more than the so called Zionists, who not only haven't organised any rallies, but who didn't even join the existing one, except in very small numbers?
"Anyone have any idea what we do with those horrible orange scarves, and rags?"
oooh, the settlers' symbol, how will we get rid of THAT
nebach
sounds like something the ha'shomer hatza'ir would say
"770 said...
Many Gedolim believe that the decision should be based upon what the experts say is the best for Pikuach Nefesh."
"770," the Rebbe said categorically, and screamed, that all the experts not bribed or silenced say that it's pikuach nefesh to give away land. Your statement seemed to imply differently.
""Or you could ask farkert: where were all the other "leaders of our
generation" when the Rebbe spoke about the dangers of Camp David, Oslo, etc."
Obviously they thought differently.
After all, with the greatest respect, the rebbes concerns on giving back
Sinai turned out to be unfounded and we have seen several decades of
relative peace with Egypt - the country that was Israel's most dangerous
enemy until then."
I fwded this to a friend of mine, who responded most articulately:
The PLO issued the Phased Plan for the destruction of Israel in 1974, following
the defeat of the Arab nations in the Yom Kippur war of 1973. That plan was
predicated on the fact that the Arab nations, led by Egypt, considered it
impossible to defeat Israel while it retained the Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank.
The plan thus resolved to use negotiations to obtain as much of Sinai, Gaza and
the West Bank as possible through negotiations (Phase I) and only afterwards to
launch a new invasion of Israel, using the West Bank and Gaza as the launching
ground for a final invasion by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, Iraq, etc.
Thus, the fact that Egpyt has not invaded Israel since the 1979 Sinai Accord is
not due to the Sinai Accord, it is due to their defeat in the 1973 war and the
Arab strategy agreed on in 1974 and the fact that the first phase (the turn over
of Sinai, Gaza and the West Bank is not yet complete).
Moreover, as a direct result of the Sinai Accord, control of the western border
of Gaza was turned over to Egypt and weapons smuggling into Gaza went from zero
to the extraordinary levels it has reached today, with untold numbers of tunnels
being used to bring missiles and guns into Gaza, over 5000 of which have already
been launced at Jews, killing Jews on both sides of the Green Line, including
major missile strikes against IDF convoys. As an Israeli minister recently put
it, Jordan manages to control a border of hundreds of kilometers, but Egypt
refuses to prevent weapons smuggling along a 5 km stretch across from the Gazan
city of Rafiach.
Also as a direct result of the Sinai Accord, America took on to modernize the
entire Egyptian military, pouring billions of dollars into the Egyptian military
each year, to the point that it is now on the level of a Western military force,
equipped with Apache helicopters, American fighter planes, tanks, etc. And this
military runs exercises every year based on one thing: an invasion of Israel.
The Egyptian defense minister openly states that all these weapons and troops
are certainly not to defend Egypt from Chad, Libya and Ethiopa, but are solely
based on an attack on Israel.
Only if the Disengagement Plan and subsequent handovers, by Israel, of land,
money and guns to the PLO are successful we will know if Arafat's 1974 plan for
bringing Egyptian troops, tanks, missiles and planes into Gaza for an invasion
of Israel, G-d forbid, will be carried out.
So we have thousands of dead already from the militarization of Gaza and the
very real possibility of a near invasion of Israel by Egpyt with a Western
military armed to the teeth. This is not to mention an oil dependency created by
giving up the Sinai oil wells, which we developed and which has been a huge drag
on the Israeli economy, harming the standard of living here, slowing aliyah and
leaving less money for the military (which lacks sufficient funds even for
bullet proof vests).
"And you will now agree that the rebbe's praise and admiration for Sharon were also misplaced...No?"
at the time he was good, but he went rotten, like the meraglim--what's so hard to understand?
also, if I'm not mistaken, the Rebbe instructed him not to get involved with politics
"If the organisers would have kept away from any comparison to Holocaust"
which they did when?
And why is there not a comparison to the start of the Holocaust? Ever read things that the Arabs say about Jews? It's identical to Nazism in its virulent anti-semitism, and giving away land to terrorists is fuelling these modern-day Nazis.
Dear Rabbi Oliver,
ReplyDeleteThe hour is late so I will not answer all your twisted comments. If no one else does then I will. But you were caught out lyeing in the name of Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick. You admit you did it to get more people to come to your street march. But how can anyone in a normal frame of mind say that Rabbi Gutnick wrote his statement only to an idividual!
1) Rabbi Gutnick wrote it specifically for this blog as is clearly stated by RG and the webmaster!
2)What is the difference who it was written to.
3) Rabbi Gutnick does not say that the one idividual should not march, but rather NOBODY should march.
Just about every point is twisted this is just one small sample!
Rabbi Oliver-there is no sense in me arguing any furthere with you since you are not being intellectually honest. You misrepresent and distort too many issue for me to spend the time on.
ReplyDeleteIt seems you arguments are twisted by your emotions muddying your analysis. Your heart is ruling your mind.
You are still very young and when you get older you will understand better, perhaps.
By the way--just one of the many things you distorted-the organisers did write in an email telling people to jam the phone lines of the embassy.
ReplyDeleteBelow is the copy of the email they sent around:
On Tuesday, July 19, 2005, don't fail to take part in the worldwide rallies
listed on the website www.telavivrally.com
For information, email davidromanoff@gmail.com
In addition, as soon as you get this notice, keep calling the numbers
listed below, as often as you can.
Jewish teenagers are sitting in jail for non-violent civil disobedience
while Arab terrorists are set free.
Below is a copy of the text of an email the organisers sent around:
Note: forwarded message attached.
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
ABRAHAM LINCOLN SAID: IT IS A SIN TO BE SILENT WHEN IT IS YOUR DUTY TO PROTEST!
On Tuesday, July 19, 2005, don't fail to take part in the worldwide rallies
listed on the website www.telavivrally.com
For information, email davidromanoff@gmail.com
In addition, as soon as you get this notice, keep calling the numbers
listed below, as often as you can.
Jewish teenagers are sitting in jail for non-violent civil disobedience
while Arab terrorists are set free.
We must let the Israeli government know that what they are doing is wrong.
This is very simple to do!
Call the Israeli embassy or your local consulate and tell them what you
think. Call them as often as you can. Call them back and ask them to let
Ariel Sharon know that what he is doing is wrong. Call them again to find
out if they have cancelled the expulsion plan. Have your friends, neighbors
and relatives give them a call.
Keep calling until this madness is stopped.
Be polite but persistent. Imagine what will happen if every Jew that cares
calls. Their phones will be rendered useless.
This tactic was very effective in our fight for Soviet Jewry. They had to
change phone numbers. Our message was received loud and clear!
Enclosed are important numbers to call. Surely it is a lot easier for us to
call from our homes and work places than it is for good Jews in Israel to
sit in jail for trying to stop this madness.
Together we shall overcome this evil, immoral, Deportation of Jews Plan.
With Love for Israel,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Messenger 7.0 beta: Free worldwide PC to PC calls
Yehoishophot you certainly have a lot of time on your hands! I thank you for writing your comments.
ReplyDeleteTwo points that referred to me. Firstly, despite what you say and despite the discussion on communual matters this blog still remains a personal blog.
And second: Rabbi Gutnick wrote his personal statement specifically to this blog and not as part of a conversation with me or anyone else. The reason he wrote it was because an email from a conversation with someone else was publicised and I asked him if I could reprint it. He preferred to write a specific statement outlining his views rather than be misquoted.
This Oliver twist is the most dishonest Rabbi I have come across.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is when you are not seeking the truth but to prove your own view facts and fiction get twisted together.
Someone asked for a level headed unbiased Rabbi to quote the Rabbi as Oliver has a tendency to quote out of context to further his own cause. It is a waste of time proving to such narrow minded people that they are wrong as they are not seeking the truth rather only to strengthen their own positions even if facts and truth need to be sacrificed.
OIliver claims that Egypt is waiting for Arafats 1974 plan to be implemented before they attack Israel. This dreamt up fact was necessary to disprove the fact that Begin gave back Sinai was a benefit to Israel. To invent conspiricy theories on this blog will create a situation that I and others would rather read a Noddy book! The logic and interlect level of Olivers arguments makes me
ReplyDeletewonder what is the criterea to become a Rabbi? It is scary if people consult Rabbis for advise or direction!
Isn't it strange that Yahoopot Oliver only answers what he chooses to!
ReplyDeleteI have been told by family in the USA that we in Australia are upside down. Now I see some Rabbis are really upside down.
ReplyDeleteBut Rabbi Oliver takes the cake. To say if you don't march you have committed a cardinal sin (my words) and then giving a psak that for girls to sing and dance in front of a shule should be accepted, is rather bizarre.
Is the only Mitzvah in our Torah not to leave Gaza. As this is the only chabad campaign I have ever witnessed.
Oliver youur comments filled with Sina and Loshon Hora can knock Rabbi Gutnick, spread misinformation in his name, but to knock Bnei you are looking for a big fight. Our credentials to support Eretz Yisrael always leaves chabad for dead. The difference is only, that we are realists doing what we can to support ALL of Israel in positive ways why you guys are spaced out. Seeing the Rebbe and smoking dope doesn't make you any holier!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletethe above two comments should be deleted
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI think Rabbi Oliver is cute. I love that the young girls should dictate community standards and policy re International political issues as Gush Katif and the Israeli Prime Minister (As Miriam did)The good Rabbi is sweet telling us that we have many little Miriams.
ReplyDeleteWere the girls across the road protesting pro disengagement also Miriams, who lead the community?
ReplyDeleteA question to Rabbi Oliver!
ReplyDeleteSince when can you be a Rabbi and to be
Honest
Impartial
Accurate
Unbiased
Correct
and Polite
are absolutely not important!
s. teitel: Why is a rabbi not entitled to his own opinion? Just because someone is not what you consider to be impartial, unbiased etc does not mean that he or she is dishonest or less of a person. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view and this and other blogs are a great way of expressing those opinions.
ReplyDeleteThis name Rabbi Oliver is a made up name.
ReplyDeletePlease don't blame our Rabbis who lead the community with some crazy's screen name!
To aussie echo!
ReplyDeleteI couln't agree with you more! We must all be tolerant and sometimes agree to disagree. But my issue (as apparently others!) is Rabbi? Oliver is not tolerant. The saying goes "If you live by the sword you die by the sword" For Oliver to attack any one and everyone including a prominent Rabbi as they do not follow his view for a street demonstration.
He cannot be b i a s e d when he claims he is talking in the name Torah and our holy books. He must be i m p a r t i a l when saying the views of The Rebbe of Lubavitsh. He must be a c c u r a t e when saying who Rabbi Gutnick wrote to as well as re jamming the phones at the embassy. He must be c o r r e c t regarding the Sinai, and regarding Rabbi Gutnick's false change of heart. He must be p o l i t e to all who have different views as well as to Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Gutnick and all others he insulted and preached to.
Rabbi Oliver has a point - Bnei Akiva and the Mizrachi community let us all down with their miniscule attendance.
ReplyDeleteHere we are basically demonstrating to help their kindred souls who live in Gush katif and they are not prepared to offer any help. Shame Mizrachi Shame!!
This protest by all rights should have been organised by them - the so-called religious zionists and what did they show us??
That they have no feeling - not for religion and not for zionism!!!
Who would've believed it???
KIT said...
ReplyDeleteThe israeli flag hanging on the fence in front of yeshiva shul!
WWTRS? [What Would the Rebbe Say?]
You ask WWTRS?
He would say FEH, FEH!!!!
(and probably demand removing his name from YC)
Yehoishophot Oliver said...
ReplyDeleteWe were surrounded by people proud about being Jewish, proudly singing "Am Yisrael Chai, Gush Katif Chai!"
Especially to be credited are the girls from Beth Rivkah who attended in a large turnout, and the women in general, who outnumbered the men!
And there was no violation of halacha because girls were singing in a group (though that's admittedly far from ideal, and it should certainly not be done on a regular basis, it's not assur) and many men were singing too.
>>
No violation???
What are you, a reform rabbi??
Kol be'isho ervah - that is teh halacha!!
Remember, mitzva goreres mitzva and avereh goreres avera.
Females singing in front of men is an avera - thus the demo must have been one as well.
No wonder the religious zionists didn't participate - THEY - unlike the singers - are religious after all.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbi is alive so Yechi.
ReplyDeleteAm Yisrael Chai
But what does Gush Katif CHAI mean.
Is it also alive like the Rebbi. Towns don't live or die. I have never heard Crown Height CHAI, or 770 CHAI, or Yerushalayim CHAI.
If they would have stood in respect and sincerely as the leftists did across the road, and maybe even said some tehillim what terrible thing would have happened?
re R' Gutnick: again, I didn't "lie," didn't "attack him" ch"v, but just gave over the report as I received it, and I didn't have reason to doubt it at the time
ReplyDelete(and the investigation that I wrote above was also just what the person told me as I understood it, and there may or may not have been some misunderstanding, but that doesn't make me a "liar"; I certainly did my best to resolve the issue sincerely, and did not repeat anything other than what was reported to me)
the report turns out to have been inaccurate, and I hereby apologise to the bloggers here and R' Gutnick for not going to the trouble to further verify it, and I have already retracted it anyway above
(it's strange, though, that "AussieEcho" is withholding the original email he wrote to which R' Gutnick's email was responding)
re Bnei Akiva: the madrich told me that he was told not to attend by the powers that be there, but he did anyway--kol hakavod
"The difference is only, that we are realists doing what we can to support ALL of Israel in positive ways while you guys are spaced out."
really? it's strange that according to the Bnei Akiva madrich I spoke to, your compatriots in Eretz Yisroel and America are involved with and even organising the demonstrations, but here they're not--can you please explain that to me, in light of the philosophy you just described?
my intention in my comments was not to "bash" Bnei, but merely to express my disappointment at their apparent lack of principle; frankly, I was also disappointed that many more Lubavitchers didn't attend, but proud of those who did, along with all their kids
I do not endorse the hanging of the Israeli flag, and I would have stopped it if it were in my power
I do not suggest that all aspects of the event were ideal, but simply that overall it was a very positive one
re the BR girls: halevai I would meet more older people--I know a few but not enough, who are really bothered by the matzav in EY like they are. Really, such people are rare here. And it was indeed far from ideal that girls were singing in public as I already said, but see the positive and acknowledge it!
of course they're kids who are lacking maturity, along with all the other male youth who attended, but don't forget the ma'amar Chazal: "veheishiv leiv avos al bonim--al yedei bonim," and again, learn from the tremendous positive, that's all I'm saying, instead of harping on the negative so
re the etzem inyan of street protests:
everyone conveniently ignored the precedent quoted at length above re the leading Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel and Crown Heights encouraging participation by all in street protests for reason of pikuach nefesh
they also conveniently ignored the fact that no solid proof has been adduced for the Rebbe's alleged opposition to street protests for Eretz Yisroel, but people still persist in stating this as a self-evident fact
If the source is Leibel Groner, that can't be accurate, as my mother said that Rabbi Groner told her that Leibel Groner said that he believes that the Rebbe would certainly want us to attend these demonstrations, and based on that encouraged her and my father to attend the rally AND march, which they went to do.
in the other bloggers' claim that we should not protest in front of non-Jews, they also conveniently ignored my reference to the first Rashi in Torah, which I repeat
here is a sicha where the Rebbe calls for this, translated by yours truly, in the merit of my son, Shneur Zalman ben Atara Arielle:
Tell Non-Jews "The Holy Land Belongs to the Jews Because G-d Said So," and You Will Succeed
Jewish ownership of the Land of Israel is not subject to negotiation or "business deals." The land with all its borders, "From the river of Egypt until the great sea, the river Euphrates," [Genesis, 15:18] is an inheritance to every single Jew, and therefore no one may, G-d forbid, cede a portion of the land. Furthermore, the very desire to cede land, G-d forbid, is contrary to the divine will, for "Of his own will He gave it to us" [Rashi on Genesis, 1:1] as an eternal inheritance.
When the Jewish people stand by this principle with the appropriate firmness—not because of "My strength and the might of my hand," [Deuteronomy, 8:17] but because the land is an eternal inheritance from the Eternal G-d to the eternal nation—they will succeed.
This will ultimately bring to the fulfilment of the prophecy, "Their kings will be your craftsmen, and their noblewomen, your wet nurses." [Isaiah, 49:23] Even while the Jewish people are still in exile, the gentile nations will help them carry out G-d's will in general, and His desire that no land be relinquished to non-Jews in particular.
This hastens the arrival of the Messiah, when the entire land will belong to the Jewish people, including the lands of Keini, Kenizi, and Kadmoni, and the fulfillment of the prophecy, "For then I will transform for the nations a pure tongue, that all will call upon the Name of G–d, and serve Him with one consent." [Zephaniah, 3:9] May it happen speedily, in our days.
Likutei Sichos, Vol. 15, p. 109.
if only people would have the same degree of passion for protesting and doing various other constructive things to support our brethren, (working day and night and investing large sums of money like the organisers of the rally) as they do for their irrational disdain of the colour orange (the brave settlers' chosen symbol, but eww yuck let's ridicule THAT)--I haven't yet noticed any "non-orange" people devoting themselves selflessly to organising rallies for Torah, Tefilah, and Tsedaka--the situation would be vastly different--not only in Eretz Yisroel, but here in Melbourne, in the state of the community
since they cannot respond to my points, they resort to personal attacks
obviously the moderator of this blog is not at all interested in editing out personal attacks by cowardly nameless people, an irresponsibility that apparently stems from his own anonymity--so this will be my last post here
To Steve Teitel: Mazel tov for signing your name! Hoepfully others will follow our examples and come out of hiding.
ReplyDeleteAnd I agree with your comments and reprinted them here below:
Steve said:
"To aussie echo!
I couln't agree with you more! We must all be tolerant and sometimes agree to disagree. But my issue (as apparently others!) is Rabbi? Oliver is not tolerant. The saying goes "If you live by the sword you die by the sword" For Oliver to attack any one and everyone including a prominent Rabbi as they do not follow his view for a street demonstration.
He cannot be b i a s e d when he claims he is talking in the name Torah and our holy books. He must be i m p a r t i a l when saying the views of The Rebbe of Lubavitsh. He must be a c c u r a t e when saying who Rabbi Gutnick wrote to as well as re jamming the phones at the embassy. He must be c o r r e c t regarding the Sinai, and regarding Rabbi Gutnick's false change of heart. He must be p o l i t e to all who have different views as well as to Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Gutnick and all others he insulted and preached to."
Kudos to Steve!
my email is sds@iprimus.com.au
Maybe your head is in the sand Rabbi Oliver but, Chabad is split, so to some of us,the opinons of Leibel Groner or Wolpe, or Kuti Rapp are not from Sinai.
ReplyDeleteAnd what does the Beis Din of Crown Heights have to do with Melb? What does the Dass Torah of Melb say? The only we have heard from officially on this issue has been Rabbi Mottel Gutnick.
And you are being extremely patronizing and judgmental in saying the people of Melb do not care about EY. Everyone knows Australian Jewry is one of the most Zionist Israel loving communities in the world. Just because they do not express their love of Zion as you would does not mean they do not feel it.
Yehoishophot Oliver said...
ReplyDeletere R' Gutnick: again, I didn't "lie," didn't "attack him" ch"v, but just gave over the report as I received it, and I didn't have reason to doubt it at the time.
YOU DID NOT STATE THIS IS WHAT YOU HEARD. YOU SAID IT AS A FACT!
(and the investigation that I wrote above was also just what the person told me as I understood it, and there may or may not have been some misunderstanding, but that doesn't make me a "liar"; I certainly did my best to resolve the issue sincerely, and did not repeat anything other than what was reported to me)
-YOU STATED THE REASON YOU DID IT WAS TO GET MORE PEOPLE THERE, AS NOT 1 SINGLE RABBI WOULD SUPPORT YOUR MARCH!
the report turns out to have been inaccurate,
-WHAT IS ACCURATE FROM YOUR COMMENTS!
(it's strange, though, that "AussieEcho" is withholding the original email he wrote to which R' Gutnick's email was responding)
-HE WAS NOT RESPONDING, HE WAS REPEATING HIS DAAS TORAH TO THE PUBLIC, I REPEAT TO THE PUBLIC
re Bnei Akiva: the madrich told me that he was told not to attend by the powers that be there, but he did anyway--kol hakavod
-IF THIS ANONYMOUS MADRICH STORY IS ACCURATE OR NOT IS IRELEVANT AS NOT 1 RABBI OR LEADER AGREED TO ENDORSE OR SUPPORT THIS STREET PROTEST.
really? it's strange that according to the Bnei Akiva madrich I spoke to, your compatriots in Eretz Yisroel and America are involved with and even organising the demonstrations, -PLEASE READ NEWS ARTICLE ON THIS BLOG THAT THE CROWD WERE NEARLY ALL FROM CHABAD WITH LOTS OF KIDS LIKE HERE! but here they're not--can you please explain that to me, in light of the philosophy you just described? -
I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE MANY “ME” AND “I” PLEASE YOU ARE NOT THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE OF MELBOURNE-UNDERSTAND!
my intention in my comments was not to "bash" Bnei, but merely to express my -AGAIN “MY”- disappointment at their apparent lack of principle; frankly, I -AGAIN “I” -was also disappointed that many more Lubavitchers didn't attend, but proud of those who did, along with all their kids NEARLY ALL WERE KIDS INCLUDING MAYBE YOU!
I -“NOTICE THE I”- do not endorse the hanging of the Israeli flag, and I would have stopped it if it were in my power BUT ISN’T EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER AS YOU HAVE A MONOPLY TO TRUTH AND RIGHTOSNOUS!
I do not suggest that all aspects of the event were ideal, but simply that overall it was a very positive one THANK YOU GRAND RABBI!
re the BR girls: halevai I would meet more older people—HOLD ON DIDN’T YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HOW FANTASTIC WE HAD OUR MIRIAMS LEAD US! I know a few but not enough, who are really bothered by the matzav in EY like they are. JUST BECAUSE OLDER PEOPLE HAVE MORE MATURITY THAN DO KIDS STUFF I GUARANTEE THAY ARE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT ERETZ YISROEL THAN YOU WILL EVER BE! Really, such people are rare here. And it was indeed far from ideal that girls were singing in public as I already said, but see the positive and acknowledge it!- I SEE NO POSITIVES IN DOING AN ISSUR IN FRONT OF A SHULE BEFERHASIYA!
of course they're kids who are lacking maturity, along with all the other male youth who attended, but don't forget the ma'amar Chazal: "veheishiv leiv avos al bonim--al yedei bonim," SO CHAZAL HAS NO PROBLEM IN LACKING MATURITY.-and again, learn from the tremendous positive, that's all I'm saying, instead of harping on the negative so. YOU HAVEN’T STOPPED YOUR ATTACKS AND CRITISISM BUT IF THEY AGREE WITH YOU WE WILL SEARCH FOR THE TREMENDOUS POSITIVES. WE WILL ONLY HARP ON THE NEGETIVES FOR THE INFIEDELS!
re the etzem inyan of street protests:
everyone conveniently ignored the precedent quoted at length above re the leading Rabbonim in Eretz Yisroel and Crown Heights encouraging participation by all in street protests for reason of pikuach nefesh- I HAVEN’T FOUND ONE RAV WHO HAS GIVEN A HETER HERE. AND THAT IS WHY RESPONSIBLE, MATURE PEOPLE DID NOT JOIN THE FUN MARCH!
they also conveniently ignored the fact that no solid proof has been adduced for the Rebbe's alleged opposition to street protests for Eretz Yisroel, but people still persist in stating this as a self-evident fact. NO SIR YOU ARE FABRICATING THE FACT, TO SUIT YOUR POLITICS.
If the source is Leibel Groner, that can't be accurate, as my mother said that Rabbi Groner told her that Leibel Groner said that he believes that the Rebbe would certainly want us to attend these demonstrations, and based on that encouraged her and my father to attend the rally AND march, which they went to do.
in the other bloggers' claim that we should not protest in front of non-Jews, they also conveniently ignored my reference to the first Rashi in Torah, which I repeat. YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS THAT THIS IS WHAT RASHI OR THE REBBE MEANT FOR OUR CHILDREN IN MELBOURNE.
if only people would have the same degree of passion for protesting and doing various other constructive things to support our brethren, (working day and night and investing large sums of money like the organizers of the rally) as they do for their irrational disdain of the colour orange (the brave settlers' chosen symbol, but eww yuck let's ridicule THAT)--I –“SO WE ARE BACK TO I”- haven't yet noticed any "non-orange" people devoting themselves selflessly to organising rallies for Torah, Tefilah, and Tsedaka--the situation would be vastly different--not only in Eretz Yisroel, but here in Melbourne, in the state of the community. NOBODY ORGANISES RALLIES NOR SHOULD THEY. BUT PLENTY ARE LEARNING MORE, DAVVENING (WITH MINYAN) BETTER AND GIVING MORE TZEDOKA, ESPECIALLY IN OTHER COMMUNITIES!
since they cannot respond to my points, they resort to personal attacks WHO SARTED WITH PERSONAL ATTACKS. THIS IS NO PERSONAL ATTACKS JUST TRYING TO GET YOU OUT OF DREAMLAND INTO THE REAL WORLD, BEFORE YOU TOTALLY DESTROY ANY RESPECT THAT IS LEFT FOR THE TITLE ‘RABBI’ OR FOR CHABAD.
Obviously the moderator of this blog is not at all interested in editing out personal attacks by cowardly nameless people, an irresponsibility that apparently stems from his own anonymity--so this will be my last post here. PLEASE DON’T LECTURE THE BLOGMASTER. YOU HAVE HAD YOUR FAIR SHARE OF PEOPLE YOU HAVE PUT DOWN, RIDICULED, INSULTED AND PREACHED TO.
Tolerance means to respect a view that you do not necessarily agree with!!!
So Rabbi Oliver you have decided to retire. I think you are a smart man, as this blog does not work well when someone has the mentality of "ANYONE IN MY WAY GETS KNOCKED OVER"
ReplyDeleteI won't bother responding to the above posts, considering their tone
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to clarify that my comment re girls' singing along with the men etc. was not meant to imply that it is permitted, but that some heterim do exist for it, albeit very dochek ones, and that that can be a limud zechus in this situation; certainly the widely accepted practice is not to allow it, and I didn't mean to "pasken" otherwise, and apologise for any such implication.
also, the section I posted re Egypt and giving away Sinai was not written by me, an impression which someone above seems to be under, but by a friend (who lives corageously in the yishuvim)
To CNN watcher, you were cynical saying that the Melb. Rally will change anything in Washington or Israel. But you missed the point completely! Of course we can't change the corrupt politicians! But this Rally was "SOLIDARITY" rally, to support the residents of Gush Katif! You should have heard the emotion in Dror Vanunu's voice when he said that rallies like this give encouragement to the settlers !!!
ReplyDeleteP.S. Dror lives in Gush Katif, will speak at Ohel Devorah this Friday night and at 770 on Shabbos morning.
Nothng wrong with a solidarity rally per se, but this one, because of the incompetent way it was handled, wound up being divisive for the local community.
ReplyDeleteAlso, halacha meant nothing to the organisers.
Just think how many more people would have come if the organisers had behaved like mecnchen! At least four times as many!
You group has done Dror and his fellow Gush Katif residents a big disservice!
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ReplyDeleteIt was mentioned that the militant part of Chabad hijacked this issue, and destroyed it for Middle class jews. So who suffers the settlers!
ReplyDeletesue d. --chabad has been hijacked by radical yechiniks and hotheads for years. They upstage the level headed balanced people and no one can stop them. They are "holier than thou". They are also not to be trusted because they change the truth to serve their agenda. They are ruled by their emotions. They are ruining the Chabad movement.
ReplyDeleteAnd the normal fellows at Chabad who are not Meshiachistim continue to suffer!
ReplyDeleteThese people will leave Lubavitch as some already have, as the embarrasment is enormous.
careful chosid said...
ReplyDeleteYechi hamelech writes: "if all those CH leaders including Rabbi leibel Groner were FOR the protest, why are our own Chabad rabbis not?" I don't see any "CH leaders" mentioned in the article
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Huh? Rabbi Leibel Groner isn't a CH leader???
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by yechi hamelech: "how come Rabbi Motel Gutnick issues statements about not participating in the protest when this is clearly agaisnt the rebbes views?" You obviously haven't read Rabbi Gutnik's statement. Or if you have you are once again guilty of misrepresentation. Rabbi Gutnik specifically calls for protest - but in a less divisive and more constructive form that would have been much les political, more true to the Rebbe's derech
/////
Rubbish!!
Rabbi Mottel is being typically wishy-washy saying everything and nothing and trying to keep everybody happy. He could have said clearly it is OSSUR to attend, but of course didn't because he is still a bit afraid of the rebbe!
Rabbi Groner and even Mottel's father used to give CLEAR and open instrcutions. But I note that this has become the way of melb rabbis
eg the unbelievable weak response to the mechitzeh matter at the Chevrak kadisha by meir Shlomo.
These young rabbis should realise that they are in a position to spread the Dvar Hashem and should not throw away sych an opportunity. At the same time is it too much to expect Lubavitcher rabbis to follow the rebbe's directions and requests?
That means - at this time - to speak loud and ofetn about shleimas haaretz and giyur kehalacha.
Remember rabbis - you will be giving din vacheshbon for everything that you could have achieved and didn't.
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At least Rabbi Gutnik was honest enough to admit that he is doubtful about the Rebbe's attitude to street marches in Chutz laaretz in this case, and offers advice accordingly, whereas yechi hamelech is just so sure that he/she knows exactly what the Rebbe would have said.
=======
Come off it! Rabbi Gutnik knows as well as I do what the rebbes attitude was. The rebbe almost got sick over the sheleimas haaretz issue and did everything possible to defend it
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Yechi hamelech further writes "As for the myriad of other local chabad rabbis - shame on you all!" One thing we don't have to debate about is the fact that the Rebbe specifically instructed us to always consult with our Rabbonim. Shame of YOU, yechi hamelech, for the chutzpah in ignoring this explicit and unquestionable advice of the Rebbe and maligning all our local Chabad Rabbonim.
>>.
Maybe you are a rabbi and feel insulted by what I wrote. However
Chazal tell us "bemakom sheyesh Chilul Hashem ein cholkin kavod lerav". Hear that? No kavod to a rav when he causes Chilul Hashem!!
The rebbe would have disowned some of our so-called Chabad rabbonim who are often neither Chabad - nor Rabbonim
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Rabbi Gutnick doesn't need to aplogise for his honest and measured advice.
==
Forget about apologising. Doing Teshuva is more like it
Who does thisDROR represent besides himself. Is he a Rabbi? Is he a leader? Just a PR man for a small group of settlers who put numbers on their arm and wear yellow stars. These are the people who are threatening BLOODSHED if they don't get their way. The latest research says over 63% of Israelis support Sharon in Israel, while over 90% in Chutz L'Aretz. In New York they could only ger 1,000 protesters which if you subtract the Yechiniks and the chabad children there wasn't even 200! These shows something!
ReplyDeleteyechi hamelech you've posted this response to my comments on the wrong thread but I'll answer you here anyway.
ReplyDeleteNo I am not a Rabbi. I am just an ordinary person who however heeds the Rebbe's explicit instruction of assey lecho Rav. Or does your know-it-all attitude corrupt the Rebbe's words here too by saying that we only have to heed our Rabbonim when they say what WE want them to say?
You really have not addressed the real issues that I have raised have you? You are simply an extraordinary yesh in that you claim that you and only you know exactly what the Rebbe and the Rabbonim REALLY mean and think.
The bottom line is that the results usually attest to what was right and what was wrong.
Did this particular local rally really achieve anything? Did the antics of our boys and girls in particular make a Kiddush Lubavitch in the eyes of the rest of the community? Would the Rebbe really have approved of these antics and the flag etc etc etc?Did it strengthen the numbers supporting Shleimus Ha'Aretz or simply alienate many who may otherwise have been onside?
You can live in dream world but I think that unfortunately most of us fully realise the answer to these questions.
The more people like you persist in speaking on behalf off the Rebbe in their blinkered, beligerent know-it-all way and denigrate everyone else, the more the Rebbe and the issues he cared for are unfortunately harmed. The Rebbe did not support or call for street marches at the time Yamit was given back despite the same vehemence of his opposition and he therby clearly remphasised his negative attitude to such puiblic marches and protests. The Chabad leaders in Eretz Yisroel (and also the Mazkir in that case) that I referred to were also so sure that they knew what the Rebbe wanted in that infamous episode- but it turned out that they too were absolutely wrong.
I just hope that you be granted the clarity to see who really needs to do Teshuvah for the damage to the Rebbe and the cause of Gush Katif that you and your one-eyed fanatical friends are reponsible for.
Dear Yehoshophot,
ReplyDeleteHow people change. When you went with me to Yavneh in the early mid 90's you where one of the most broadminded liberal thinkers. You were even more Liberal then I was, and I was by no means Right wing or Lubavitch.
We need to catch up.
Cheerio
from your old mate
Daniel
Gut Shabbat Yehoshophot. From all your ex friends at Bnei.
ReplyDeleteWe can still be friends! Bnei was once too frum for you now you say shame on us and Caulfield Shule!
Let's go out for a drink again!
Chooky
I planned to go to Ohel Devora to hear Dror tonight, but after reading from Broken Heart I have decided not to go and learn with my Children an hour tonight. Whatever we need to know the Rebbe has already told us, so I"ll choose Torah over listening in Shule to Dror!
ReplyDeleteI wish to be moche on those posters writing personally about YO.
ReplyDeleteYO has shown us all what a fine chassidish youg man he has become DESPITE Yavneh.
Yehoishphot - to you I say - keep up your good works in spreading Torah and chassidus and miztvos and chesed
Sorry I pressed the wrong button!
ReplyDeleteI wish to add:-
But not extreme right wing politics!
Yechi Hamelach
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ReplyDeleteAccording to Rabbi Oliver is it permitted to go to Bet Weizman to the forum with Hirsh Goodman. The Orange people are calling all mates to hijack this community forum.
ReplyDeleteI went to hear Hirsh Goodman. He spoke extremely critically against the Orange people and 90% of the crowd were jeering him. Moishe Elkman and a friend of his were made into minced meat with their twisted facts!
ReplyDeletejenny, so nu? For tose of us who did not attend what are some of the points made by both sides at the event?
ReplyDeleteGoodman was pretty fair. Maybe slightly left leaning. But he was very factual. He explained things that the Orange people would like to hide from us. Goodman believes that Jews should be able to live anywhere even in Gaza. He was extremly critical of the tactics of the anti disengagement activists, and those Mizrachi Rabbis who tell soldiers not to obey orders.
ReplyDeleteThe issues are far more complex than the Orange people would like us to believe. Goodman claims that Sharon has the support of the vast majority of Israel, and will be re-elected. I'm sure the AJN will have a report.
Could someone please let me know where I can see all the reports of the many demonstrations that happenned according to the orange people last Tuesday around the whole world. Besides ONE small one in New York i haven't found anything!
ReplyDeleteThe demonstrations hapenned in each capital city including Moscow. We couldn't see them with our fleishiger eyes. But may we soon be zoiche to see these demonstrations which are alive!
ReplyDeleteYechi kol HaDemonstrations L'Olam V'OAD
One of the many lies of the orange people (which Gurevitch repeated in todays Jewish News) that protests were held all over the world.
ReplyDeleteTo repeat a lie 100 times doesn't make it true!
FACT:
The only other demonstration (outside Israel)besides Melbourne was in New York which was also (mainly chabad rent a crowd) kids.
Melbourne has approx. 5% of the Jews of New York and the 2 protests were within 150 people/children of each other.
Does this prove that Melbourne is the capital of the CRAZIES??
According to the Tel Aviv Rally website (http://telavivrally.com/locations.php) there were many rally throughout the United States and the world on July 19. It shouldn't be too difficult to confirm this.
ReplyDeleteThere were 27 rallies in 27 cities around the world. The photos show many brave "orange jews". See 3 websites for accurate reports -
ReplyDeletewww.telavivrally.com
www.katifund.org
www.israelnationalradio.com
www.womeningreen.org
Your use of the word 'brave' is hyperbole!
ReplyDeleteThe only 'brave' ones are in EY. The rest are not being brave by marching because they live outside EY where there is no risk for them to rally.
But there is a risk of them being found to be crazy!
ReplyDeleteshlompy, there is no comparsion between the risk the Israelis are taking to the Jews marching down Inkerman Road!
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Orange people are attracting the risk to us!
ReplyDeleteTo compare your risk in Melbourne to the risk of the Israeli soldiers that you expect to risk their lives to defend Gush Katif is as crazy as comparing Gush Katif to the Holocaust!