Kinus of Torah, Tefilloh and Tzedokah
Sunday 17 Tammuz
4.00pm – 4.45pm ( followed by Mincha )
To show support and to pray for our brethren in Gush Katif.
Men, women and children are invited.
Includes a raffle for children.
Tzemach Tzedek,
1 Penkivil St, Bondi
Sunday 17 Tammuz
4.00pm – 4.45pm ( followed by Mincha )
To show support and to pray for our brethren in Gush Katif.
Men, women and children are invited.
Includes a raffle for children.
Tzemach Tzedek,
1 Penkivil St, Bondi
Rabbi Gurarie should run Sydney and Rabbi Braun should run Melbourne.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Braun could fix all your problems. He is a real Chosid, Mentch, role model and a respected leader.
It's OK Sydney. You can keep your politics and rebels there. We're quite capabe of looking after our own problems, thank you, without importing new ones.
ReplyDeleteWhat rebels?? What problems??
ReplyDeleteSydney is now functioning well and we are going downhill fast.
We should be so lucky to have people of the quality of rabbi Gourari and rabbiBraun here in Melb.
ReplyDeletemelbournite - you obviously don't know who these men are. You are used to the stuff that gets rolled out locally..
A raffle?????????
ReplyDeleteFirst prize : Orange scarf??
No I don't really know Rabbi Braun or Rabbi Gurary (and I suppose many of us in Melbourne don't - which probably is significant as well). But we don't neeed the Sydney solution of a split community here thank you.
ReplyDeleteAs stated we can solve our own problems without the divisiveness and pirud that Sydney used that was supported (encouraged?) by these two men who are not even recognised officially as Shluchim or officially representative of Chabad becasue of how they went about their "solution" of the Sydney problems.
Not recognised as shluchim by whom?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, who said that they are not recognised?
How can you blame these rabbis for the Sydney situation when many other people were involved - including the Head Shaliach.
You can't blame these two rabbis, who happen to both be learned and chassidish, for Sydney's problems. B"H they are a major part of the solution!
My son brought home the Chabad Youth newsletter from YC called the MS Weekly.
ReplyDeleteMS Weekly is a shonda. If you wantto know what is wrong with YC chinuch just look at this and you will see.
MS weekly had a 'blonde' joke as the joke of the week in it. This teaches sexism.
MS Weekly made a joke comparing YC to Hogwarts school which reference to Harry Potter. What shtus!
There is a feature article on footy.
The front page of MS Weekly is a report about the Orange demo called 'Orange Fever' and how exciting and fun it was.
Buried somewhere in between all these silly jokes and narishkite, there is a small picture of the Rebbe, a small bit on the parsha, and a Chassidic story.
Most of MS Weekly is rubbish and has nothing to do with Chabad or Torah.
And they call this Chabad Youth? Sheesh! this is exactly what is wrong with YC!
Chabad Youth is headed by Moshe Kahn.
My question is this; where is the Chabad in it?
According to what I have been told the fact that there has not been an Australia-wide Shluchim convention for the past three years (despite the great success of the first one that was held) is because there are problems about invitinfg these representatvies of Chabad communities in Sydney because they are not officially recognised by the Shluchim office.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am not blaming them solely. Neither am I saying that these rabbis are not doing a good job in their own moisdois. (I don't know eanough about Sydney to comment on that.) I am simply saying that the overall Sydney solution where various Lubavitchers will not talk to each or be seen in each others' Mosdois and even end off in court after physically assualting each other, is simply not the solution that Melbourne needs to learn from or be encouraged to copy. We really don't need unsolicited advice from there and certainly should not be preached to follow their example or the example of their leaders when the situation there appears to be far from the ideal being portrayed.
Why don't you just let kids be kids.
ReplyDeleteThe MS weekly is a publication produced by 14 year old children what on earth do you expect them to write about.
I think Moshe Kahn has a lot of work to do in the chinuch arena but the MS weekly is not the sort of thing you should be complaining about.
Melbournite: I have no idea why there has been no Australian shluchim convention either but do you really think that has to do with the Sydney situation?
ReplyDeleteMaybe the reason that there is such bad feeling in Sydney has nothing to do with the people you seem to be blaming...There is more to the situation than the rumours we hear here.
Asusieecho - Answer to your question is - why don't you ask the orgainsers of the first convention? I think you will find out that I am right. The answer to your final comment is - Maybe.
ReplyDeleteBut I simply don't believe that the Sydney "solution" is what we should be encouraged to follow here. That was the point of my original comment in answer to the smugness of sydneysider's suggestion that various members of the Sydney leadership should be imported to fix Melbourne's problems. Their leadership simply is not the solution when we can so obviously see that there is still so much more that needs to be done in their own city. So we really don't need anyone from Sydney smugly commenting on our leadership or telling us what we should do . They should be concentrating on their own community and not preaching to us, thank you.
Let's call a sdade a spade!
ReplyDeleteTzemach Tzedack has a bigger minyan than any chabad shule in Melbourne. They have a smaller comunity, and no less competition.
They started from nothing a few years ago. The Sydney chabad families children are more chassidish than ours, and the drop out rate is well under half of ours. I can go on but isn't this enough to show that Shdney should be a shining example to us.
PS. Isn't one of Aussie Echos options re the chinuch problem here,that we should move to sydney!
Anonymous wrote:
ReplyDelete"Why don't you just let kids be kids.
The MS weekly is a publication produced by 14 year old children what on earth do you expect them to write about.
I think Moshe Kahn has a lot of work to do in the chinuch arena but the MS weekly is not the sort of thing you should be complaining about.
July 24, 2005 12:58 AM"
Amswering the above coment copies:
Have you ever heard of Tzivos Hashem? Chabad has been letting kids be kids while teaching Chabad hashkafas and having a purpose for decades, not just shtus like MS Weekly. Fourteen year old kids in a Lub school should not be allowed to write whatever they wish without supervision. Fourteen year old boys should be give directon. 'Blonde' Jokes are inappropriate. Encouraging kids to read Harry Potter is not encouraging Chassidisc hashkafas. Instead they should be encouraging them to read books pertaining to Yiddishkeit, not magic, the occult, and shtus.
Chabad Youth offers lots of good times and parties and sports but very little Chabad hashkafas.
The Chabad Youth director got the job bec he is the PTB chairman son in law, not bec of experience.
ok, so we've bagged yeshiva college, BRC, R Groner, the ptb, solved all of the community's problems, that we're now looking for new targets, who better than moishy kahn.
ReplyDeleteits not worth writing in his defence, anyone who has a clue knows how many children in the community who have strayed from yidishkeit, estranged from their parents have found refuge in his house and have come closer to yidishkeit as a result from his efforts.
i don't wish any of you to require these services, but i wouldn't be surprised when one of you baggers goes through such a situation that he will be your first point of call.
just like the lubavitch haters who curse lubavitch, the Rebbe , etc but when theyre going overseas to some holiday destination, some 'loch' first person they call is the local shliach, shnorrer some kosher food, etc.
use em when it suits, bag em when it suits...
To go get a life!
ReplyDeleteIs it really important to help our kids go of so Moishy Kahn might bring them back?
This is a weird argument!!
A real life is a ruchniyos, chasidishe life!!
It was a good bridge. It was a wide bridge. It was the only bridge.
ReplyDeletePeople used to travel over the bridge left and right, to go about their business and get to the other side.
But one day the bridge collapsed and all the travelers on the road fell down into the valley below.
There were many injured.
The leadership of Chelm decided to set up a temporary emergency room, below where the bridge used to be.
They treated all the injured immediately. The travelers got well.
The next evening, more travelers, not knowing that the bridge had collapsed, also fell down into the valley below, and they were injured.
And the wise men of Chelm saw that it was good that they had already built the temporary emergency room under the bridge, that way, all future travelers could get immediate medical assistance when they fell down from the now missing bridge.
To go get a life!
ReplyDeleteNobody chas v'shalom curses the Rebbe. You are living in outer space. Some are very pained the what the School is doing to our children, and what the Meshiachistim are doing to the Rebbes memory.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteGo get a life! You sound like a very angry person. Don't be so negative and get rid of that chip on your shoulder. People who ring the local shaliach on holidays are not Lubavitcher Knockers or cursers.
ReplyDeleteThey ring to offer support, say a good word and even leave a donation. I have first hand expirience. They do not shnorr. But if anyone needs food etc. please don't be afraid to ring. We are more than happy to help frum people as well as those not frum yet!
I think "Go get a life" woke up this morning on the wrong side of the bed!
I think what Sydney are doing is boring. Maybe good for old hats! Melbourne had a fantastic demo and rally tuesday night. You guys don't know what cool is.
ReplyDeleteA book that is a must read for anyone interested in the Chabad approach to chinuch is called "The Educator's Handbook-Principles, Reflections, Directives of a Master Pedagogue, Rabbi Mordechai I. Hodakov".
ReplyDeleteRabbi Hodakov was close aid of the sixth and seventh Rebbes, head of Merkos Lyonei Chinuch, Machne Yisroel, Agudas Chasidei Chabad, and the Rebbe's closest aid.
Excerpt from page 46,
"It was brought to our attention in a memorandum that girls from one of the schools took part in a school procession. We do not, as a general rule, view this favorably. It does not reflect well upon the characters of the daughters of Israel, of whom it is written,'All the honor of the king's daughter is within,' (Tehillim 45:15).
Let the distinction between this and the Lag B'Omer Parade and other such processions, be absolutely clear: the whole point and purpose of the parade is the strengthening of Judaism-which is not at all the case with the ordinary kind of march, or door-to-collections." end quote.
We might be old hat and you might be cool.
ReplyDeleteBut after 120 I wish to be 'cool' so I will stick to the torah way as taught to us by the Rebbe.
Rabbi Hodakovs words are very interesting.
ReplyDeleteDoes he have more to say on matters affecting us in Melb?
Rabbi Hodakov wrote," The educator must have the conviction that his work is vitally connected to the soul. The soul and the destiny of his young charges are in the hands of the educator, and a chinuch worthy of the name has as its proper sphere of activity the saving of the souls. The foundation of the life of the Jew is the Torah which charts a path for him through all the twists and turns and perplexing currents of life. The task of the educator is to teach the child how to live, and the destiny of the student depends upon the education he has received-it constitutes the grounds of his life and being, and this is entrusted to those responsbile for his education!"
ReplyDeletefrom "The Educator's Handbook-Principles, Reflections, Directives of a Master Pedagogue"
When my son was in YC and I complained loudly about the terrrible secular influences and the low level of Torah chinuch and Chassidishe hashkafas, I also made constructive suggestions for positive change, none of which were considered, in fact all of which were ignored. One of these suggestions was that the teachers and principals study Rabbi Hodakov's book on chinuch. No one was interested. They apparantly think there is no room for improvement and that they have everything under control.
ReplyDeleteWhen one reads and learns more about how the Rebbe looked at chinuch one realizes what a pitiful state the chinuch of YCBR is in. The first step is to educate yourselves so you can then educate your kinderlach.
Knowledge is power!
but a little bit of knowledge....
ReplyDeleteA "must see" website www.womeningreen.org At last a decent explanation on the need to protest (orange or not) Women-in-Green are Israel's most successful activist movement.
ReplyDeleteWomen in green are well known fanatics in Israel.
ReplyDeletePlease ignor Rafi's defamatory use of the word "fanatic". He obviously is bias and did not read the article by WomenInGreen.org
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone have any constructive critisism?
Women in Green happens to be 2 women called Nadia and Ruth Matar. Nadia has been charged with criminal conduct.
ReplyDeleteThe following was written by Ruth Matar on there web site:-
Teenagers calling on soldiers to refuse orders is a very important part of the disengagement battle. As a matter of fact, the teenaged children of my co-Chair, Nadia Matar, Yehuda and Talia, spend much of their time at the barbed wire fence around Gush Katif, trying to speak to soldiers.
These are dangerous women that even the right wingers shun. But in Melbourne anything goes!
I have read and seen photos on the web where young women are flirting to soldiers to convince them to disobey army orders.
ReplyDeleteWhat would the psak Halocha of Rabbi Elkman be on this practice?
ReplyDeleteto shoshana
ReplyDeletedoes your son recieve a more chasidisha education in adass yisroel?
To Mr anonymous, from your question it seems that both schools give a chasidisher Chinuch but you are asking which school is MORE!
ReplyDeleteI have not seen anything at all at Yeshiva that would even resemble a chasidisher chinuch. Just look at the behaviour of our teenagers and you will see for yourself. Just last night i happened to see 3 bochurim come out of the video shop with videos or DVD'S in their hands. (It gave me extra nachas as it is the 3 weeks!) Absolutely no embaresment. I am referring to good families.
malka, you answered Mr. Anonymous correctly.
ReplyDeleteAdass Yisroel gives a frum chinuch while YC does not.
Just to clarify the statements made above.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that YC is a chasidish school at its heart. Its policies are dictated by the teachings of the Rebbe. The only problem is that the implementation of those policies are not always well directed.
I speak from authaurity. I have been through the YC system from Kindergarten to VCE and despite for the fact that I do not come from a Chabad household I left YC wanting to learn more chasidus in order to conduct my life in that derech.
What I am saying in a nutshell: YC contains within it all the potential to develope any student who is serious about lemuday kodesh balanced with a quality lemuday chol. In adass they probably just force it down your throat by presenting life in a closed-off world.
I do not know how they present it at Adass. But what I do know that Adass has a 100% success rate. Every child continues to an overseas Yeshiva and every child grows up to be a frum jew. Here at Yeshiva not only do the non frum students ALL stay non frum, but nearly every frum family has a child who has freid out. Some worse than others, but the spiritual holocaust can be seen by all.
ReplyDeleteAdass is not a perfect school. But it is a good frum school.
ReplyDeleteTo those who believe that the Adass School is overly insular,narrow minded, and that they force Yiddishkeit down the kids' throats--nothing could be further from the truth. These are all negative stereotypes that do not apply across the board.
There are some people in Adass who are quite reactionary, but they are a minority, and many Adassniks find them to be annoying. The student body consists of children from various backgrounds--Gerer, Bobov, Litvish, Misnagid, a few from Lub., and various other groups I cannot even spell or pronounce.
The education given is a standard frum Torah education. They all get the basics of Torah learning.
Many of you would be surprised as to how worldly many Adassniks truly are. Many of you would be surprised at how wealthy some of them are, and they did not get that way by shying completely away from the modern world.
I do not agree with all their hashkafas, but at least they are frum hashkafas and not secular shtus and narishkite like in YC.
sue d.said "but nearly every frum family has a child who has freid out."
ReplyDeleteWould you not call that a gross exageration? Many families do have children who are disappointingly less than chassidish but calling them " Freid out" is overdoing it. Every family has their personal struggles and knows that if one kid comes out well and one doesn't; in the same school and in the same family who exactly is to blame??? The world is a dark place in need of Moshiach and this is what we are waiting for. These nisyoinos of "losing" children is the darkness before the light of Moshiach. Unfortunately the schools are not much protection from the outside world we need to foster sholom in the community and lover our children and support the moidos and the activities they do try to provide, not knock them with such vitriol and disgust.
But some mosdos have a much higher proportion of kids going frie than others so you can't just blame it on the darkness before Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteBy pointing out that the schools need to improve is not pointing 'blame' but is offering a way to pinpoint the problems so we can help to fix it. I did not detect any virtiol in Sue d's comment, she says this is a spiritual holocaust, so why not be disgusted about it? You need to face the truth! We have a terrible situation here that we cannot just keep accepting as normal becuase of the darkness.
My comment about vitriol and disgust was not meant for sue d. it was just a genereal comment to other bloggers sorry it seemed that way.
ReplyDeleteSometimes thngs happen and people do things that merit only vitriol and disgust as the appropriate reactions from those who care about the innocent children who are the victims.
ReplyDeleteAdass philosophy and education is based on the rejection of any Jew who does not tow their line. The strict entrance policy of their schools proves this. While this discrimination may indeed help to produce at least superficial good retention rates for the select chosen ones(certainly not 100% though) it is not the derech of Chabad. Chabad teaches, as one of its major beliefs, the concept that Ahavas Yisroel applies to ALL Yidden. I don't see how anyone professing to be Chabad can honestly advocate putting their children into such a seperatist environment. Our schools may not be perfect but the answer is to work positively on improving them - not abandoning them and transferring our children into an environment that is just so opposite to the teachings of our Rebbes.
ReplyDeleteName one person who has attended their school from kinder until Yeshiva Ketan that is not shomer torah u'mitves today.
ReplyDeletechabad parent, your comment speaks for itself, because it shows contempt for Adass, whom you paint with a broad brush, and you thereby show a lack of ahavas yisroel. Your comment reeks of a self satisfied smug feeling of superiority. This attitude of superiority of yours is the opposite of the Rebbe's teachings.
ReplyDeletechabad parent I have news for you. Adass is far less seperatist than Yeshiva. Adass have followers of the Rebbeim of Gur, Satmar, Lubavitch, Belz etc. Plus followers of Rav Shach the Yekkisha derech etc. I have cousins children at Adass and when there is a family simcha I speak to them and they are not superficial. I question your own comment that Ahavas Yisroel applies to all Yiden and then you knock a frum kehilla. Adass does not look down at others but is not a school that caters for all types of standard. It is a school for those who are 100% committed for a pure frum chinuch without compromises. Just because they are careful not to accept children that will corrupt their children does not make them superfivial. The fact is not one goes to university, all learn till their wedding and attend kollel. I think the Rebbe would choose Adass over the current Yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteI am not embarrassed for respecting Adass. We have some very fine bochurim thanks to the no nonsence values of Adass. We were taught by our Rebbe to increase mitzvos in order to bring Moshiach not let them fall into the darkness and wait for Moshiach. Adass is not the ideal option but please give me a better option that works without loosing holy neshomos of our kinderleich!
Shoshana: I have not mentioned anything that shows contempt for Adass - so please don't attempt to deflect from the real issue at hand by attempting to attack my attitude instead of my content.
ReplyDeleteI am simply saying that their way is not our way... without passing any other judgement.
You have made your choice and good luck to you. But don't let your obvious need to defend that choice cloud the indisputable fact that an Adass education is simply not a compatible alternative to a Chabad education for a Chabadnik.
If you could have
ReplyDelete6 frum children who attended Adass,
or 6 children 2 being chassidish, 2 bnei akiva and 2 mechallel shabbos
which would you choose?
Sorry I did not explain myself clearly.
ReplyDeleteThe 2 Options:-
A) Adass Education
B) YBR Education
Sorry! first time using this forum!
Adass fan: All the sections you mention that make up Adass however all have one thing in common: A rejection of anyone who is not Chareidi and unfortunately they most certainly DO look down on others (as any non-Chareidi person who has wandered into Adass will be able to tell you). I am not putting them down. I respect them too, but, call a spade a spade. Their way is simply not the derech of Chabad. (And I really think that you are wrong in even presuming to tell us what the Rebbe would choose.)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteChabad parent you wrote
ReplyDelete"Adass philosophy and education is based on the rejection of any Jew who does not tow their line. The strict entrance policy of their schools proves this. While this discrimination may indeed help to produce at least superficial good retention rates for the select chosen ones(certainly not 100% though) it is not the derech of Chabad."
Your comment above clearly states that you believe Adass is a discriminatory school and that they reject Jews. Not only does this comment's tone show contempt in a subtle way, but also shows utter ignorance of Adass.
When my son was applying for the school there were only a few requirements and these were that we had to be committed to Torah and Mitzvos including tznius, kashrut, cholov yisroel, & ahavas yisroel etc. We were never expected to accept their minhagim or hashkafas, In fact, they have been extremely tolerant of the many different hashkafas of all the different types of groups they have in the school, including ours.
I bet you did not know that next to the photos of many Gedolim Yisroel they also have a photo of the Rebbe. I bet you did not know they quote the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch. I bet you did not know that in Yeshiva Katan they sometimes quote the Tanya.
One year my son's Rebbe asked him to give a presentation to the class about Chabad Rebbeim on Yud Tes Kislev.
Now,you tell me if YC school teaches about any other Rebbeim or gedolim other than the Chabad ones. I doubt it.
Adass's entrance policy is not a 'rejection' (as you called it)of Jews who do not tow the line, it is simply that Adass is not a school that sees mekareving frie Jews as part of its mission. Albeit, this is not the Chabad derech, but why do you feel compelled put it down? Is it you that is being the defensive one, perhaps?
Beth Rivkah definitely teaches about other "greats". Last week I attended an Bat Mitzvah performance of the Year Seven girls. They included great women in history including Rebbetzins Chana and Chaya Mushka and focussed on Sara Schenirer even interviewing Mrs. Heimfel( a member of the Adass community)who was a student of Sara Schenirer. p.s. there also was a lovely interview of Rebetzin Groner highlighting her sacrifices when coming out on shlichus in the 1950's
ReplyDeleteShoshana: I say again I am NOT puting them down. Although I DO claim that they are seperatist and that they DO have a policy of rejection (as the RABBI whose children were rejected from Adass simply because he was the Rabbi of a modern orthodox Shule could tell you). I am simply saying that, as you have admitted, their derech is not the derech of Chabad. Therefore rather than you and others proposing sending Chabad children to Adass as the solution you should be promoting raising the standards of the YBR. That's all I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteOkay, I have been corrected, thank you, and I am glad to hear BR taught about non-Chabad 'greats'.
ReplyDeleteBut my point is that Adass is not as xenophobic and some people like to make them out to be.
I am not proposing sending children to Adass as a solution to our problems, in fact, if you have read my comments on this blog you would know, I believe the solution to our problems are new Chassidishe schools.
ReplyDeleteForgive me if I got the impression your were putting them down, if you say that was not your intention I accept that.
Shoshana said: "Forgive me if I got the impression your were putting them down, if you say that was not your intention I accept that."
ReplyDeleteAfter the usual vitriol on this site I'm really impressed Shoshana! And of course I forgive you. Maybe we should forget the comparisons and get back to the issue of how to make our own schools better.
So Aussie echo - what happened to the initiatives of a week ago that were started before the distractions of the Gush Katif issue? Has everybody simply vented and have now lost steam?
I would have preferred to have snet my son to a Chabad school, but there are not too many choices here.
ReplyDeleteLoyalty had nothing to do with it.
IN fact, I would say the PTB are the ones who have not been loyal to the Rebbe's shittahs.
Chabad parent, venting is good. I think I am just about vented-out on all this by now.
ReplyDeleteI have said from the very beginning that we need positive action.
Any ideas? contact me sds@iprimus.com.au
I have an idea for S Silcove.
ReplyDeleteWhy dont you put your money where your mouth is and set up your own lubavitch school without any "frieyer" kids and follow the rebbes teaching as you see it.
Until such a time i dont think that it is fair to bash YBR especially since you are not in a position to talk (i.e. not being a YBR parent).
You are obviously a highly intelegent woman with a strong opinion about certain chinuch issues. My proposal is that you be mumshich these ideas from the levels of chochma and bina to the level of das and beyond. No one is going to change the system so why dont you have a try?
Want to help me? Can't do it alone. Volunteers accepted for this challenge. I'm game.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, who the heck are you? You know my name but I don't know yours. Let's start by having people identify themselves here on this blog so we can meet and move this onto the level of action.
sds@iprimus.com.au
I only deal with people who are serious. I have very limited time but if you are serious enough maybe we can get a round table going.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is a bit of fun where anonymity is key.
However, we can convert this site into a constructive forum and that is the direction I hope that it will go in.
Chabad Parent: Sometimes I have to work!!
ReplyDeleteI am following the different points of view re YBR with interest. I am working on another post and some practical suggestions. IY"H I will put something up in the next few days.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I only deal with people who are serious. I have very limited time but if you are serious enough maybe we can get a round table going.This blog is a bit of fun where anonymity is key.
However, we can convert this site into a constructive forum and that is the direction I hope that it will go in."
So email me! I will keep your name secret if you want.
sds@iprimus.com.au
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAUSSIE ECHO! WHEN IT IS IMPLIED BY A HATER OF FRUM JEWS, THAT ADASS ARE CHARGED WITH tAX EVASION AND KIDS GO TO COURT YOU LEAVE IT. BUT WHEN I PRESENT THE TRUE FACTS YOU DELETE IT AS IT IS CLOSER TO HOME!
ReplyDeleteIsn't right of reply fairer??
Moshiach cannot come until we stop hating all frum jews. Even those that are not Lubavitchers.
ReplyDeleteIf Adass don't have enough Ahavas Yisroel they will have to take responsibility. But for some chabad chassidim to denegrade Adass
shows why we have a spiritual Holocaust. Adass pupils will all stand tall when Mashiach comes. Lets hope ALL our kids can do the same!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteZalman - where was your protest when Yeshivah and Beth Rivkah kids were being maligned as druggies and worse? Maybe its YOU who are concerned only when its closer to home.
ReplyDeleteTo chabad parent. I feel I have a duty to state the true facts after your unfortunate comment!
ReplyDeleteI do not know of any Adass person who has been to court on Tax Evasion. If you mean Nachum Goldberger he grew up in Israel and was charged for money laundering. The money was not his. He was apparently sending other peoples money for a small fee. He would not give the names of his 'clients' who are not from the Adass. After someone framed him and taped him after he was set up, he was caught. This Mosserer was not from Adass.
AussieEcho said...
ReplyDeleteThe success rate at Adass is certainly NOT 100%.
>>>
As of today - and as far as we can know such things [there is only ONE bochein levovos], in the entire history of the Adass educational system - over 50 years - that is they are now educating 2nd and 3rd generation children - there has been 1 student - who has gone off the derech. 1. OK!!
--------
AussieEcho said...
They are a much smaller community
....
How much smaller is the Adass community to the main Yeshiva one?
Not much - if at all.
AussieEcho said...
and do not mix,
>>
That may indeed be the secret to their success - they do not allow their children to mix with freie kids. Where in Taryag mitzvos or in Rambam does it mention that this is wrong.
I can, however show you plenty of sources stating that this is how it should be.
-----------
AussieEcho said...
and have contempt, for "outsiders" including Chabad.
>>>>>>>
With respect, that is a blatant sheker and you owe the Adass community a public apology.
Adass do not have contempt for any frum Jew. Just ask teh dozens of Lubavitchers who regualrly are in the Adass shul complex, davvening there or using its mikva. Ask the Chabad families who have decided to save their kids souls and transferred them to Adass school, if they or the kids have ever felt any contempt.
AussieEcho, you should remember, that Ahavas Yisroel includes non-Chabad frun Jews too. [As someone posted "Af al pi SHELO choto - yisroel hu...]
>>>>>>>>>>
AussieEcho said...
They may have a better success rate than YC-BR but they are not a perfect community.
---------
Of course not.
You know any that are?
I do not recall labelling all Children as druggies etc. If yes you are right and I will protest. What my point is we are knocking Adass only because they are frum. We would knock Bet Hatalmud. But we would not knock the gambling by Risenberg or Bakers new mixed shule. We have a slight problem of only knocking frummies. Regarding bringing to attention apparent drug problems etc, is not to put them down it is to take notice that everything is not rosy and something needs to be done. We must see OUR OWN schools faults and others virtures not the other way around! This is the true chabad way!
ReplyDeleteNorman Rosenbaum can always be trusted to give good reliable information without being biased against any group of Jews regardless of their political affiliation or shule membership.
ReplyDeletePOTTEROVITCH shows why most people would rather continue seeing a problem child of theirs wither away than find a non chabad religous institution to send them to (if that paticular problem is chabad related!)
ReplyDeleteRather an einikel a goy than chas v'sholom an Adassnik!
Zalman The negative comments about Adass were made made as a comparative lesson AFTER and in answer to a comparison made between YBR kids and Adass kids which professed to portray YBR as mechallelei Shabbos etc and Adas as angels. If people wouldn't make such comparisons in the firsdt place then there won't be similar responses that you don't like.
ReplyDeleteNorman you have unfortunately named names and chosen to continue the discussion. The particularly children referred to were indeed not tax evaaders they were I believe convicted of social security fraud. Sorry.
ReplyDeleteLook if you think that this argument can be won by your claim that 2 children were getting social security you have lost by miles. The verdict of the case was that the charges were dismissed as these unfortunate adults who lived under the poverty line were intitled to receive social security. The porosecution built a case that they were involved in Money laundering and earning large monies illegally. This was not the case as confirmed by the court.
ReplyDeleteIt is absolutely disgusting to hide behind an anonymous name and throw mud at 2 chasidisher fine families. I know them personally and they, their wives and very large families are a role model how a family should keep torah and mitzvos.
This kind of mentality where "the best defence is attack" is a disgrace.
A very dissapointed N.R.
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ReplyDeleteCome off it Norman - why are you defending the idefensible? because they trangressed only civil laws. That's precisely the kind of seperatist attitude that is being criticised That's Ok is it? Were innocent people put in jail Norman? In any event you were the one who identified the people involved in response to what was simply an anonymous throw away line. So you must share any blame for anyone hurt by this.
ReplyDeleteIf all the people I know would be 100% correct in Tax and social security this would be indeed the lucky country. Or are there different laws in Ripponnlea and East St Kilda?
ReplyDeleteYou'rs right 769 before Norman identifies them as well....
ReplyDelete"because they trangressed only civil laws"
ReplyDeleteI have been taught that such things were also osser al pi din - Dina demalchuse dina? Chillul Hashem?
These people were not in jail at all- they were 100% freed. You are confusing them to their father!
ReplyDeleteYour words "children with you in court" These children were in their 30's!
Lets call a spade a spade. In all community's there is a very small minority who unfortunately do something against civil law. This is totally unacceptable. But believe me there are many more people proportionally in all other communities who have erred in no smaller way. So why pick on Adass? Because they are frum.
Shame on you!
Where is your Ahavas Yisroel and what has the actions of ONE man got to do with labelling 200 families as SEPERATIST!
PS. I will not enter into any further discussions! I received a call from a good friend in the Yeshiva community who asked me to set the record straight.
The Beit Hamikdosh will be rebuilt only from Ahavat Chinam!
Chabad parent said...
ReplyDeleteAdass philosophy and education is based on the rejection of any Jew who does not tow their line.
>>>
Line???
Shulcha Aruch is a "line"??
--
Chabad parent said...
The strict entrance policy of their schools proves this. While this discrimination may indeed help to produce at least superficial
>>>>
superficial?
Living a life of Torah and Yiddishkeit is superficial?
Pleeeez!
====
good retention rates for the select chosen ones
>>
select?
You make it sound like a tiny 10-20 student school.
Approx 4-5000 students have gone through Adass' poratls in the past 50+ years. I wouldn't call that 'select'.
==
(certainly not 100% though)
..
as I wrote elsewhere, near enough to 100%. OK 99.75%.
===
it is not the derech of Chabad. Chabad teaches, as one of its major beliefs, the concept that Ahavas Yisroel applies to ALL Yidden. I don't see how anyone professing to be Chabad can honestly advocate putting their children into such a seperatist environment.
>>
I am no expert of the Chabad derech.
But isn't there a possibilty that such a derech was the right one, whilst Chabad students were succeeding in bring outsiders back to Yiddishkeit?
Reading this blog, I get the impression that these days sadly quite a bit of the traffic is moving in the other direction. If so, are Chabad chassidim expected to or even allowed to expose thier sons and daughters to such risks?
I am not going to answer that one, but shouldn't you ask your rav or posek this shaaloh?
-
Chabad parent said...
Our schools may not be perfect but the answer is to work positively on improving them - not abandoning them and transferring our children into an environment that is just so opposite to the teachings of our Rebbes.
>>
Adass is NOT opposite the teaching of the Rebbe. That is a plain sheker. The rebbe's was a tzaddik who wanted his chassidim to be talmidei chachomim and yerei Hashem.
That too is the aim of the Adass mosdos - nothing more nothing less.
"The Beit Hamikdosh will be rebuilt only from Ahavat Chinam!" Precisely. But it should work both ways. Perhaps if people see the hurt caused by Loshen Horah to those they care about they will desist from spreading it against others. Where have you been Norman when Chabad, Rabbis, YBR kids have been maligned on this site for weeks now? Why do you just come frward to defend a few Adass members who really were mentuoned originally anonimously in passing? Methinks you protest too much.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of this blog according to Aussie Echo was as a forum to discuss issues including problems at YBR. Not problems with Arthur or Marthur commiting Tax or Social security fraud! Was the Gabbe of Yeshiva so holy!
ReplyDeletechabad parent said...
ReplyDeleteAll the sections you mention that make up Adass however all have one thing in common: A rejection of anyone who is not Chareidi and unfortunately they most certainly DO look down on others (as any non-Chareidi person who has wandered into Adass will be able to tell you).
>>
What do you mean by 'rejection"??
That they don't allow non-frum Jews to influence them or their children?
Yes, in that case you are right.
But 'look down' upon people?
How? Who? When?
Enough already. Let's talk about something worthwhile. There must be something more interesting than Adass to talk about.
ReplyDeleteDrugs, pornography, bad company, internet, hanging out by pupils of YBR are issues that really concern me. I have personal reasons why it concerns me. Each morning I worry that my children should not pick up anything that can corrupt there neshomo.
ReplyDeleteIf people in Adass are charged with theft, fraud or hilacking a plane frankly I am not interested. Unless it can help our children it is not worth reading!
You're right!
ReplyDeleteSomeone asked about other protests about Gush Katif.
Saw on Chabadnik.com the following article "Dozens of Anash and Temimim took part in a Mass Tefila at the Chabad shul in Montreal this week in wake of the dangerous situation facing Israel today."
I studied all the pictures but not an orange balloon in site, no Israeli flag, no singing girls and not one protest poster.
Booooring!
When the world is discussing the Terror problems, Sheik Omran knocks America!
ReplyDeleteWhen we are discussing serious problems withour chinuch some knock Adass!
Same logic!!
Some of my experiences:
ReplyDeleteMy son was in Yeshivah College for three years. He was 6 and one half when we arrived here. Our experience was that the children were not friendly but snobby and into cliques. We also could not help but notice that there was a tremendous amount of teasing and bullying among the boys, much more so than there had been in Lubavitch Yeshivah in Crown Heights. The boys were just not nice to each other. And this teasing and bullying was tolerated by the staff in general who did not seem to be teaching the boys to show ahavas yisroel or good middos.
Then in 2000 our son was put into Adass at age nine. He did not know Yiddish and it took him a year to catch on but he did. He was the only Chabad boy in his class, the Super boys came the next year.
I can honesly say that the Adass boys welcomed him and accepted him as one of the crowd almost immediately. For certain there have been times when certain boys and certain school officials have expressed some biases against Chabad, but on balance I would say that the amount of ahavas yisroel, achdus, and middos tovos shown between the boys in Adass far surpassed that we saw in YC.
The boys in Adass are taught that it is absolutely not acceptable to make another child feel bad for any reason, to speak loshon hora, or to embarass another child. Once there was a boy who was far behind all the boys in development. This slow boy was pciked last for teams when they played sport and felt unaccepted. One day when the slow boy was not in class the rebbe gave a talk to the entire class explaining that the slow boy was thinking of going to another school and told the class that it was all the boys' fault for not showing him enough ahavas yisroel. The class took it to heart and the next day they were especially friendly to the slow boy. Not only that but the class decided to chip in and buy the slow boy a soccer ball. Anyway, at the end of the day the slow boy became much happier and accepted and the parents decided to keep him in the school.
The point is that they showed they cared.
IN Adass they taught my son about the basic things that a Jew should know in how to conduct oneself on a daily basis and be a mench. Of course there are boys with problems and wildness in Adass, but the problems and the wildness are not comparable to the drug taking, the swearing, the flirting, the sports obssession, the chutzpah, the lack of reverence for Torah, and the like that we saw in YC.
Of course there are some lovely Chassidishe boys in YC--I will not paint them all with the same brush. But we are talking about the generalities of our overall impressions.
In Adass, the education committee takes an active role in the school's problems. My husband was invited on several occassions to attend parental meetings and his opinons were respected. In YC the education committee does not take an active role in anything concrete to increase the yrias shamyim of the school, but are active in fundraising, and we found parental opinons counted for nothing in YC unless you had lots of $$$$ in the bank.
When I walked into YC during school hours I did not feel that I was in a centre of Torah learning, there was a lack of feeling of yiras shamayim, and when I walk into Adass, I can feel and see that this is a place of Torah.
This has been our experience and as a Chabadnik I am most dissapointed that YC has let us down so.
Shoshana, you are making me think about what to do with my children next year.
ReplyDeleteYes, they too have had certain uunpleasant experiences and we too haven't gotten too far by speaking to teachers.
I am unsure if we will qualify for acceptance in Adass - that is something we shall be seriously discussing in the next few weeks.
The other options are risking our kids nashamos or moving away, which we really do not want to do.
In any case, kol hakavod that you were brave enough to do everything to help your son. I am sure you will have much nachas from him and he will be a true chassid and shliach of the rebbe despite or maybe rather becuse you sent him to study in Adass.
Sara, what some people fail to realize is that most of the Rebbe's close Chassidim did not study in Lubavitcher Yeshivos. And Tomchei Temimim Lubavitch in Crown Heights was a very choshover yeshiva. And through the years we have known many of the Rebbe's top Chassidim whom did not attend Lub schools as children. In fact, some of the most repsected Chassidim right here in Melbourne did not attend Lub schools as children.
ReplyDeleteAnd to the poster on this blog above who wrote that they would rather their child be frie than be an Adassnik--keep your children in YC and, G-d forbid, that is just what you may get.
And all of these frie children will be welcome in any Chabad House to be mekareved, including my son's should he one day in the future decide to open one.
Dear Shoshana, Although I respect your convictions and your mesirut nefesh, I truly believe that we should not talk about Adass. Some of us (including me) highly respect Adass, but that does not fix the problems at YBR. We are not as brave or as strong as you and could not stand the abuse that we are aware you had to put up with. When you highlight the advantages of Adass I feel glad that Torah and Yiddishkeit in Melbourne are going from strength to strength but for some people Adass is a threat and they feel they need to be defensive. For many it is simply a "Tall Poppy syndrome"
ReplyDeleteSo please to keep the attackers qiet please try to focus on our problems rather than the positives of Adass Yisroel.
ad mosa, thanks, I hear you!
ReplyDeleteTo Ber,
ReplyDeleteCould you please give me more infomation re the Hijacking of the plane by Adass.
As I am considering sending our children to Adass, this information re the Hijacking is important to me!
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ReplyDeleteTo chabad Parent!
ReplyDeleteI think your comparision is slightly of track!
How many kids in Adass go to court with their parents for Tax evasion?
How many kids from Yeshiva belong to Bnei Akiva or are Mechallel Shabbos?
And even if they were similar I am not sure I would choose Bnei Akiva or Mechallel Shabbos, which unfortunately is a fact that some Anash are living with.
ReplyDeleteRachmono Letzlon!
Didn't I read earlier "Yisrael Af Al Pi Shlo Chota Yisrael Hem"!
ReplyDeleteJews even if they (DO NOT) sin are still Jews.
Do some in the Lubavitcher community really believe that Ahavat Yisrael is only for Chabad plus not religous Jews, but if you are a chareidi it is a Mitzvah to hate them?.
I would rather face a local court with a local Judge than the Heavenly court in front of the King of Kings, Hakadash Baruch Hu!
Alan: I don't understand what you are getting at. Maybe I missed something but who says Lubavitchers have sina for charedim?
ReplyDeleteThe undertones when Adass is mentioned by some worries me. Also you leaving the comment re children in court due to Tax Evasion was something I cannot agree with.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise I think your forum is a good community service letting frustrated people get rid of their steam.
Thanks for pointing out that comment Alan. I have now deleted it. I try to read the comments carefully but sometimes things slip through. If anyone notices something they think is offensive I am happy to look at it and, if I agree, delete it. Email me at aussieecho@gmail.com.
ReplyDeleteRe the "undertones" regarding Adass. Unfortunately it works both ways and with all communities here in Melbourne. I have deleted a number of comments which have gone too far.
G-D bless you!
ReplyDeleteYou can send your kids to YC, BR,Yavneh or Adass .
ReplyDeleteSydney eh! maybe
Who cares ,they're all OK!
Consider yourselves lucky as you live in a country where there is choice.
Aussieecho :Why don't you all start a discussion on shuls and really let the bloggers blurt it out.
Good comments Alan F.
regards from Darwin
Every Tisha B'Av a beautiful video is shown highlighting that we need to do more to bring Mashiach. Sinat Chinam caused the destruction of the Temple and the Talmud teaches us that Ahavat Chinam will bring Mashiach who will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.
ReplyDeleteI am led to believe that every single orthodox synagogue in Melbourne, Sydney and Perth show this video on Tisha. Apparently over 40 venues with over 2,500 people. It is sad that the Lubavitch community are the only ones who do not participate. I call on the whole Chabad community to show Achdut and join hands with all orthodox jews in Melbourne this Tisha B'Av. I have seen these messages for the past 5 years. Each year they get better and more meaningful. I can promise you will be thankful to me for going, both B'gashmiut and B'Rochniut.
And as an extra advantage, Unity will end our Galut!
timna fried--I attend that video presentation every Tisha B'Av and find it immensely satisying. I see maybe one or two other Lubavitcher women there.
ReplyDeleteDear Timna, Your comments might be correct in Melbourne. But Chabad in other places support the Tisha B'Av message. In fact in Sydney it is organized by Rabbi Gurarie.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite Poem- To bring Moshiach:-
ReplyDeleteMoshiach's Hat
(A Poem To Ponder)
'T was the night of the Geulah, -- And in every single Shtiebel
Sounds of Torah could be heard -- Coming from every kind of Yeedel.
This one in English, -- Some in Hebrew, some in Yiddish.
Some saying P'shat -- And some saying a Chiddish.
And up in Shamayim--The Aibishter decreed:
"The time has come -- For My children to be freed.
"Rouse the Moshiach -- From his heavenly berth.
Have him get in his chariot, -- And head down to earth.
"The Moshiach got dressed -- And with a heart full of glee,
Went down to earth and entered -- the first Shtiebel he did see.
"I am the Moshiach! -- Hashem has heard your plea!
Your Geulah has come! -- It's time to go free!
"They all stopped their learning; -- This was quite a surprise.
And they look at him carefully, -- With piercing sharp eyes
"He's not the Moshiach!" -- Said one with a grin,
"Just look at his hat, -- At the pinches and brim!"
"That's right!" cried another -- With a grimace and frown,
"Whoever heard of Moshiach, -- With a brim that's turned down?"
"Well," thought Moshiach, -- "If this is the rule,
I'll turn my brim up -- Before I go to the next shul."
So he walked right on over -- To the next shul in town.
Sure to be accepted, -- Since his brim was no longer down.
"I'm, the Moshiach!" he cried, -- As he began to enter
But the Jews wanted to know first -- If he was Left Right or Center
"Your clothes are so black!" -- They cried out in fright.
"You can't be Moshiach--You're much too far right!"
"If you want to be Moshiach, -- You must be properly outfitted.
"So they replaced his black hat -- With a Kippah that was knitted.
Wearing his new Kippah, -- Moshiach went out and said:
"No difference to me -- What I wear on my head.
"So he went to the next shul, -- For his mission was dear.
But he was getting frustrated -- With the Yidden down hear.
"I'm the Moshiach!" he cried, -- And they all stopped to stare,
And a complete eerie stillness -- Filled up the air.
"You're the Moshiach?! -- Just imagine that!
Whoever heard of Moshiach -- Without a black hat?"
"But I do have a hat!" -- The Moshiach then said.
So he pulled it right out -- And plunked it down on his head.
Then the shul started laughing, -- And one said " Where's your kop?
You can't have Moshiach -- With a brim that's turned up!
If you want to be Moshiach -- And be accepted in this town,
"Put some pinches in your hat -- And turn that brim down!"
Moshiach walked out and said: -- "I guess my time hasn't come.
I'll just return -- To where I came from.
"So he went to his chariot, -- But as he began to enter,
All sorts of Jews appeared -- From the Left, Right, and Center.
"Please wait - do not leave. -- It's all their fault!" they said,
And they pointed to each other -- And to what was on each other's head.
Moshiach just looked sad -- And said, " You don't understand."
And then started up his chariot -- To get out of this land.
"Yes, it's very wonderful -- That you all learn Torah,
But you seem to have forgotten -- A crucial part of our Mesorah.
"What does he mean?" -- "What's he talking about?"
And they all looked bewildered, -- And they all began to shout.
Moshiach looked back and answered, -- "The first place to start,
Is to shut up your mouths -- And open your hearts.
"To each of you, certain Yidden -- Seem too Frum or too Frei,
But all Yidden are beloved -- in the Aibishter's eye."
And on his way up he shouted: -- " If you want me to come,
Try working a little harder -- On some Ahavat Chinam!"
Timna do you know the author of this poem. It is really beautiful and so true.
ReplyDeleteAlthough many seem to know exactly what everyone thinks in other communities I will admit I have no idea about other communities and am not even sure what Anash at Chabad think.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do know is that I need to be more broadminded and not look down at other frum Mosdos. I will be at the Tisha B'Av rally (if someone could please tell me where and when it is held)
But if Moshiach comes before Tisha B'Av we can all celebrate TOGETHER in Yerushalayim. Let's all hold hands SATMAR-0CHABAD-MISNAGED-GUR AND ALL OTHERS.
I don't care if other communities are better, same or worse' I am responsible for my actions and thoughts. I will start my sacred mission to help Moshiach come NOW!
Finally I start to see something positive.
ReplyDeleteLet's all go to this Tisha B'Av presentation (whatever it is) to show the world we are not SEPERATISTS!
As we are the lamplighters let's get a woman from Bet Hatalmud and one from Adass to address our Nshei. Maybe they will reciprocate!
ReplyDeleteIs there a bigger Kiddush Hashem than this.
My new message at home is:- "Love every Yid especially if they are frum and they don't have to be Lubavitch. Every Derech that is L'Shem shomayim is a beautiful Derech. No group have a monoply or hold sole rights to serve Hashem.
Sorry achdus I think I will disagree with ONE word!
ReplyDeleteYou should have written "....to show the world we are no longer SEPERATISTS"
I agree 100% with AE that I am not perfect. I try to improve each day but as a Chosid I will never accept that I am perfect.
ReplyDeleteRerarding looking down at Chabad with contempt. I do not think this is the case at all. Our children are taught alot of Shassidus including from Lubavitch.
Who am I to judge anyone!
Lubavitchers have always felt Ashreinu Mah tov chelkeinu...there is a uniqueness to each type of service to Hashem and the differences in the Minhagim and ideas and learning/doing Torah and Mitzvos adds to the many facets of Yiddishkeit. I see nothing wrong with Lubavs staying insular and making sure their children are familiar with the Chabad minhagim and not being so apologetic and eager to blend in with the others. I don't feel the need to join in Tisha Bav rallies with others...generally Lubavitchers don't make a fuss regarding the mourning aspects of Tisha Bav just say tehillim as they have done in 770 for so many years.
ReplyDeleteIt would be beautiful if we were insular. But I think our children mix with anyone and everyone. So I am not convinced that we are insular, Of course our children should be familiar with Lub. minhagim and practice them. But why can't we rather mix with other frum jews and learn there good points than let our children only mix with those who are absolutely not interested in Shabbos, Kashrus, Tzenius etc. etc. If this Tisha B'Av message has a positive Yiddishe theme It is a fantastic thing to see rather than all the shtusim that some do.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure those who say tehillim will find plenty of time to do both. If we believe in SHayufotzos Maynos Chutzo we should not continue to be such separitists.
anonymous- what about the good old UFURATZTO! It surly can't be only a one way street.
ReplyDeleteWhere did you get this APOLOGETIC Iissue from. All that was mentioned was good old Achdus and not look done at other frum groups!!
By saying "insular" I didn't mean no Uforatzto just no searching for meaningful minhagim from other Chassidic groups or lovely Pshetlach from other Rebbes etc.
ReplyDeleteEver heard of the expression - "Jack of all trades and master of none". It is perfectly legitimate to be proud of and stick firmly by one's particular Shitah and heritage and to say ashreinu ma tov chelkeinu.... While being open to all viewpoints may sound good in theory it is confusing for us and our children in particular. I teach my chikldren that my derech is the correct one for them. I and they should not be expected to have to watch a video on Tisha B'av night just becuase that is satisfying (to) another group.
ReplyDeleteThis is not new. It has always been this way - there were twelve shevotim and each one was encouraged to maintain their indpendence, their particular derech and their territory etc. Laws such as those pertaining to the inability to sell land to another shevet maintained this individuallity. By all means we can highlight the things we have in common but we most certainly don't have to belittle and sacrifice our own idividuality and heritage.
Yasher Koach! Very well said.
ReplyDeleteProud Lubavitcher you are 100% right. Who needs to see videos of Torah and Hashkofa from other circles. Even if it is about chizuk of certain Mitzvos we are not interested. If our own videos are not enough they always top it up with videos from the local video library on Carlisle Street.The Lubavitch videos plus the ones from the libraries is more than enough. Viewpoints about torah from non lubavitch people is worse than xxx movies.
ReplyDeleteYosel your sarcastic comments are not even worth replying to. You have missed the point entirely - or are just mischievously using the opprtunity to have another cheap shot at Lubavitchers.
ReplyDeleteWhat an unnecessarily sarcastic and unpleasant comment.
ReplyDeleteI think that you Yossel should indeed see the video on Tish Bav. Maybe you'll lean a little about loshen horoh and rechilus. What a disgraceful comment.
ReplyDeleteProud Lubavitcher SAYS:
ReplyDelete"We most certainly don't have to belittle and sacrifice our own idividuality and heritage."
All I suggested to watch a video that all chassidim and misnagdim watch including chabad to highlight what we all can do to bring Mashiach.
More Achdut.
No Loshon Hora
More Ahavat Yisrael
To respect all types of Jews.
If this means to a Lubavitcher chosid to belittle and sacrifice your own idividuality and heritage,
I give up.
We are maybe sadly not ready for Mashiach yet.
Wasn't the Rebbe encouraging to look and learn Torah asnd Mitzvos, now I hear that people should not be expected to watch yiddishkeit just because it is satisfying for another group. I hope and pray that all those jews out there will not say the same to their local chabad shaliach. If Mitzvas is confusing to your children as you state maybe other material is even more confusing. But it would have been so nice if someone would take the trouble to first check it over before it is censored as it was produced by the wrong "football team"
I think I give up with my call for just a little Achdus! The Fried-Fraid families contributions I hope teach better values.
Yosel you have hit the nail on the head and some don't like it. Please be a little more careful as you might chas vesholom cause one of our'machers' a heart attack!
ReplyDeleteTimna I respect the fact that you get spiritual inspiration from the Tisha B'Av videos. But in my opinion you should try to understand that maybe other people are doing their own thing to bring Moshiach.
ReplyDeletePlease re-read what you wrote above and maybe you will see that you are being somewhat judgemental yourself.
One of the beautiful things about yiddishkeit is that we can all reach the same objective in different ways. B"H there are many types of Jews with many different minhogim and ways of serving Hashem. Rather than bemoan that we should celebrate our diversity.
I8 am sorry PROUD LUBAQVITCHER IS 100% RIGHT AS I HAVE SAID.
ReplyDeleteTo watch a message that might bring Mashiach is definetly confusing to our children as Mr Proud Lubavitcher has told us....AS MASHIACH IS HERE! So why confuse children that we need to bring Mashiach!!
Moshe Chaim since when has the policy of Lubavitch been that noone should share sources to spread yiddishkeit.
ReplyDeleteSeems like the Lubavitch I grew to love is different than the one on this blog!
But I sadly accept your facts!
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ReplyDeleteIt appears that I need to be a litle more frank. Timna, many of these videos are simply not compatible with what I believe to be derech Chassidus Chabad. I have seen some of them and they are based on the derech of mussar and are presented in a manner that, while commendable and productive to those raised in that derech, is simply not the derech that is compatible with my derech of limmud and chinuch. Why are you charging me with delaying Moshiach because I happen to not think it is a chiyuv to watch your video?!!! (And what does the charge that "If Mitzvas is confusing to your children" mean?
ReplyDeleteI do not belittle you for being supportive of your choice of "turn on" - please give me the respect to allow me to choose mine.
I think it is perfectly legitimate for me to choose to learn and teach my children with my derech and the derech of my teachers and forebears. Why do you piously judge me and criticise me for that? Why does yosel ridicule and slander me and my community for that?
By all means watch your video - maybe it will help to eliminate this "holier than thou" and judgemental attitude with which you lecture to and treat others.
Because I do not get as much inspiration as you do from a certain activity does not mean that I reject it. I am not advocating that people should not go. On the contrary. But, as I said before, you should understand that just because you think something is important doesn't mean that everyone else should.
ReplyDeleteI really do not understand what the problem is. Why is it wrong for me to disagree with you?
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ReplyDeleteAnother chochom.
ReplyDeleteMr Proud Lubavitch. If I would follow your words and teach my children the derech of my teachers and forebears they would be studying Christianity!
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your comment. Are you seriously challenging me by comparing the teachings of my Jewish teachers and forebears to your so obviously different cirumstances?
ReplyDeleteTo Proud Lubavitch. I do not think it is fair to tell Timna that her call to do something in Achdus is "her turn on" I am told this yearly Tisha B'Av event has not even been release yet, and although I have never been to one those who have claim they are very good and some of the speakers on them are chassidim. What will bring Mashiach nobody knows but the Rebbe taught us not to believe we are doing enough so we cannot dismiss anything especially if we have no idea what it shows. I hope some senior Mashpia will take the trouble to check it and then to advise us if we should see it. If it is OK and serves a positive purpose I will be there with my whole family, as we cannot leave even one stone unturned in our persue to bring Mashiach. I will not sit at home why others are doing something. This is not a turn on for a fine young women from a wonderful family as Timna, and whatever your turn ons are do not interest me in the slightest.
ReplyDeleteWE WANT MOSHIACH NOW.
NO I AM CERTAINLY NOT! But you are preaching not to accept teachings only from teachers and forebears.
ReplyDeleteYou have a "holier than thou" attitude. And do not put down others please!
Your attitude that anything frum that is not Chabad irrelevant what purpose it can serve is treif is the mentality of seperatism. Not all text books are from chabad and not all teachers are chassidim. We even had someone teach 16 year old boys Gemora with a kippa seruga and whose wife didn't cover her hair. And is Ger exactly our derech. You can say what you like, hate anyone frum who is not a Lubavitcher deny your children the right to see anything kosher that is not Lubavitch (I wonder if you have same policy of "My way or the Highway" also with non kosher material"? BUT PLEASE DON'T CALL YOURSELF LUBAVITCH. The best chassidim we have are the ones who were exposed to also non chabad yiddishkeit and didn't have your seperatist craze! Take of your blinkers and don't ban something that you don't even have a clue what it is about!
ReplyDeleteBut it IS obviously her turn on Gita. She writes so passionately in favour of it . And good luck to her and anyone else that is turned on by such videos. And you are quite right in not being interested in my particular turn ons regarding Yiddishkeit and I haven't attepmted to impose them on you or anyone else. But then be consistent and not imply crticism if I have said that I object to her imposing hers on me.
ReplyDeleteWe are all working for Moshiach in our own way. Nobody has the monopoly on the only path. So I object to the claim levelled that I am responsible for delaying Moshiach because I don't accept someone else's particular choice of action.
To PROUD!
ReplyDeleteIf you wouldn't be so proud but have some anova of a chosid you would realise that Timna was not telling you what to do. It was you with your "holier than though" attitudes who was trying to tell her, me and all what to do. You go and do your own thing whatever turns you on just have a little repect is someone wants to do a 'Mivtza' don't be a spoiler. The more positive things people suggest to bring Mashiach the better. Don't knock something that you haven't seen, period.
A recipe for Moshiach!
ReplyDeleteA little bit of Achdus
A little tolerance
A double serve of respect
A little Anova
Look up rather than beat others
Don't pre-Judge
No monoply on only path.
Live and let live
Dear Timna,
I and all real Lubavitchers appreciate your suggestion and poem!
The soton always finds ways to stop a good thing, but don't despair a little light drowns out much darkness.
Sarah, you have TOTALLY over-reacted!
ReplyDeleteWhere have I said that anything not Chabad is treif?! Where have I said that we cannot learn from others or that we have to be totally seperate?! I have simply said that I feel it wrong to be criticised if I choose not to watching a particular video on Tish B'av night - because I believe from past expereience that the tone (not necessarily the content)of these videos are not compatible with my particular outlook and derech. I have not advocated others not watching them. I most certainly respect their choice. But I have reacted because I in turn do not feel I should be criticised, reviled and insulted by others if I choose not to watch it. So please don't mirepresent my opinion and then criticise me based on that misrepresentation.
To remind proud lubavitcher what he said...
ReplyDelete"While being open to all viewpoints may sound good in theory it is confusing for us and our children in particular. I teach my children that my derech is the correct one for them. I and they should not be expected to have to watch a video on Tisha B'av night just becuase that is satisfying to another group. By all means we can highlight the things we have in common but we most certainly don't have to belittle and sacrifice our own idividuality and heritage."
Does everything in Yiddishkeit need to have a team/group mentality?
Yes it does anonymous. The very essence of Torah true Yiddishkeit is that we are an am niphrad with a team/group mentality. We all ultimately have our loyalty to different Manhigim, Rabbis and communities. From the Shevotim through to Beis Shamai and Beis Hillel, through to Litvisher, Chassidisher, Sephardi traditions. And it is all a legitimate part of Yiddishkeit. There are Shivah ponim leTorah and anyone who thinks that we must all surrender our individuality otherwise we cannot achieve Ahavas Yisroel is indeed risking becoming a "Jack of all trades and master of none". And now that I have done the full circle I retire from the discussion....
ReplyDeleteTo Proud Lubavitcher!
ReplyDeleteAs long as you don't suggest to others what to do either!
Can we go back to beginning of this stupid topic!
ReplyDeleteIf your child is spiritually falling and he is not inspired by Chabad Chassidus:
Do you try one of the other Shiva Ponim leTorah or do we let them fall by the wayside?
This should become a topic although I doubt if PL/AE would go along with this. If only one child is saved, it is as if we saved the entire world.
If "we are all working for Mashiach (I wish) in our own way" shouldn't we stop putting all our eggs in one basket" and do what the Rebbe said, which was to try EVERYTHING. Or does party lines come before the Rebbe and Mashiach?
This attitude "JACK OF ALL TRADES AND MASTER OF NONE" certainly is not a concept according to Chassidus Chabad.
ReplyDeleteOr is this goyishe attitude OK as it allows us to keep our heads in the sand!
As I was reading these very interesting comments this question dawned on me.
ReplyDeleteIf the Rebbe guaranteed the yiddishkeit of the children of his shalichim, plus Chabad scool unlike other religos scools prepares the children to keep their Chabad values even in a hostile world would a video on Ahavas Yisroel really ruin their derech.
In Crown heights I watched the Tisha Bav video, although it was shown a few days earlier.
Maybe according to Proud Lubavitcher we should stop learning with others Tanya etc. as maybe it is not what their teachers and forebears taught or practiced! I'm sure nobody would want someone else to belittle and sacrifice their own idividuality and heritage.
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ReplyDeleteThis is a disgusting comment. So we have our fair share of bigots and racicts. You do not paint a whole community with one brush. Every community has their share of trouble makers. Although no official response was done to the stupid remarks directed to Timna but why should every meshugana have to be answered.
ReplyDeleteIn general Lubavitch is a very tollerant open society. We do not have anything against material done by others as long as the message is not contradictory to our values.
Our principles are United we stand and Moshiach will come through Achdus and Ahavat Yisrael. Please ignore every fanatic, they are an embarresment to the Rebbe and us. The Rebbe loved all frum jews from many, many different paths and he learnt every single ponim of our united Torah..
Aussie Echo! A favour please.
ReplyDeleteI think it is highly overdue to make a new rule.
NOBODY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK FOR OTHERS ESPECIALLY THE CHABAD COMMUNITY UNLESS THEY SIGN THEIR TRUE NAME.
People like Proud Lubavitcher are just giving us all a bad name.
Good idea Anonymous - should we start with you?
ReplyDeletePeoples own opinions are just that - their personal opinions. From what I have seen here it is dangerous to express any opinion as people take it out of context and apply their own biases to it.
If someone has something to say - whether you or I agree with it - they should have the freedom to express it. That is one of the concepts of blogging.
Proud lubavitcher said...
ReplyDeletemay sound good in theory it is confusing for “us” and “our” children in particular..
By all means “we” can highlight the things we have in common but “we” most certainly don't have to belittle and sacrifice “our” own idividuality and heritage.
Does this sound as a personal opinion! Timna gave a personal opinion. Had the guts to put her name on it and she was abused!
I have never spoken in the name of others. Nor have I ever tried to say anything but my own opinion, and never tried to speak in the name of Chabad, the Rebbe or anyone. PL can't say this!
! What have I said that makes you feel apparently uneasy?
There is a rumor that Proud Lubavitch and Aussie echo are 2 annonymous names of the same person??
I would be delighted if you start with me.
ReplyDeleteBut please no more biases!
Please confirm that such episodes like, Proud Lubavitch will no longer be able to annonymously use 'WE' and 'US' to Timna or anyone else.
ReplyDeleteIf one signs their name and the other is an anonymous community self appointed spokesperson we have an unlevel playing field.
PS. Welcome back!
Aussieecho/Proud Lubavitcher As you have asked others to name themselves, if I name you will you delete it?
ReplyDeleteIt is true that only Moshe Elkman organised anything to support the Jews of Gush Katif. But whose fault is that? It is the head Rabbonims' fault. They are doing nothing. They shuld be the ones to organse this. But since they have done nothing, they have left a power vacuum, which is now being filled by people who are not up to the job, and are therefore making a mess of things. This is what happens when community leaders abdicate their repsonsibilites-the know nothings and the wanna be's take over.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Balanced right winger, although someone commented that he would have organised some anti disengagement campaign, but unfortunately the respect of this important issue was thrown out the window by some orange people!
ReplyDeleteIn all fairness annoymous you have quoted out of context. While PL has used "we" and "us" in a general comment, when he/she presented his/her own views they were were indeed presented as his/her own. eg "I teach my children that my derech is the correct one for them." "...not compatible with what I believe to be derech Chassidus Chabad." "...is simply not the derech that is compatible with my derech of limmud and chinuch..."
ReplyDeleteMalka on the other hand says: "...I and all real Lubavitchers appreciate your suggestion and poem!"
Who is she to decide who are real Lubavitchers and to talk on their behalf?!
You are right though in that NOONE should be assumed to be speaking on behalf of any group and no group shopuld be blamed for the opinions expressed by any individual unless that individual identifies themselves and properly establishes their credentials as an acredited spokesperson of that group.
Malka:
ReplyDelete1) I have never asked anyone to name themselves. I only requested that people use an alias when commenting rather than Anonymous.
2) Please let me know who I am!!!!
3) Just because I agree with someone's comment doesn't mean that I am that person.
Aussie Echo is Rabbi Glick.
ReplyDeleteI love it!!!! Great guess!
ReplyDeleteThank you Aussieecho, proud Lubavitcher, observer and what else you might be called.
ReplyDeleteShiffy - you and your mates have a real problem if you can't accept that more than one person can have a different opinion to you.
ReplyDeleteHave a good Shabbos.
I can accept that even a million have a different opinion to me. But to have 3+ names to make yourself look more broad based is a little different!
ReplyDeletePS. Who are my mates please?
If you don't know who your mates are...
ReplyDeleteHow do you come to this scientific conclusion that I am posting under 3 different names? My conclusion was as I stated above - you can only see your point of view. Your arrogance is astounding.
Please understand AE/PL/O
ReplyDeleteI respect your blog and think it is a wonderful community service. Otherwise I wouldn't read it. But I do feel uneasy when some of us put anti other chareidi coments. We are only making ourselves look bad, and are reinforcing a view that chabad cannot stand anything frum that is not chabad. This image harms us.
Gut Shabbos, amd I hope more Tachlis next week!
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