Rabbi Shmuel Gurevitch, shliach and director of Beis Rivkah in Melbourne, Australia, was interviewed by Assaf Nagel in his Kol Hashishi radio program on the Kol Chai radio. Rabbi Gurevitch related that he was the second generation to shluchim and that his father was first sent to Australia by the Rebbe Rayats. Rabbi Gurevitch had gotten married in Israel but in 5731, the Rebbe had instructed him to return to Australia and to direct the 'Beis Rivkah' school there. Some 700 students are enrolled there today, many of whom are from not frum families. After they graduate though, they stay observant and build religious homes. According to Rabbi Gurevitch, the learning level of Beis Rivkah in both holy and secular subjects is the highest - in Australia.
My thoughts, ideas and opinions on things Jewish, Australian, Lubavitch and everything else...
Sunday, July 24, 2005
One of the Highest Learning Levels - in Australia
This appeared in COL with the above caption. I think I need say no more.... (No personal comments please!)
"After they graduate though, they stay observant and build religious homes"
ReplyDeleteListen to the interview, he never said that.
What he did say was that the school was excellent for girls from frum households.
I guess it must have been another Gurewitch from another BR, not the one we know and love.
Obviously Rabbi [when did he become Rabbi?] Gurevitch as not been reading this blog.
ReplyDeleteIf this were so good with his students, why are we kvethcing so strongly here?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAuusieEcho..if not to stir why bother printing the interview???
ReplyDeleteLet's do a survey and find out if the Lubavtichers in Melbourne agree with Mr. G.'s assessement.
ReplyDeleteOf course Mr G is proud of what he has built up, and he has every right to be. The trick is to not "sit on our laurels" and continue to move forward. Even the best can be improved, and constructive dialogue, rather than ascerbic criticism would only speed this up.
ReplyDeleteMr G. is a very nice man. He is an immigrant who has worked hard and has built a school.
ReplyDeleteBut BR still has shvach hashkafas. BR is now a modern Ortho school in hashkafas, not a Chabad school
Well said Shoshana.
ReplyDeleteIf Mr G was in charge of Yavneh or Mt Scopus - we would all be VERY proud of his achievements. However, BR is supposed to be a chassidish school producing chassidish, frum and tzenius graduates.
Is that happening???
THAT is the question that needs to be addressed.
Mr G. has given out top graduates. In all universities you have BR graduates being on par with the best non Jewish Schools. BR graduates are top doctors, lawyers etc etc. If you want a mother of 10 kids her can cook a good cholent send your girls to Adass!
ReplyDeleteThanks for the advice, I will.
ReplyDeletebr grad. I agree with you if our school would be called Yavneh, scopus or bialik. But we are supposed to be a chassidishe school. The Rebbes views on University are well known. No Chosid from any community in any generation would allow their daughter to go to a mixed university.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteCall yourselves chasidim?
ReplyDeleteGo 'do' mivtzoim and get off your laurels!
Stop criticising the Rebbe's shluchim!!!
Who ever gave you he right???
To the comment above telling me to 'worry about my own chinuch at home...ETC.."
ReplyDeleteonce again, those who cannot deal with the issues at hand will resort to personal attacks on those who will not settle for second best and try and make things better.
The Rebbe said that everyone is a shaliach, not just those who are in offical positions. Chinuch of Jewish children is an issue that all of us should be involved in.
The Rebbe often said that when a house is on fire, one cannot just sit and wait for it to burn down. This communitiy's house is on fire and the epidemic of children going off the derech is at emergency proportions.
None of us can reamin silent in the face of this enormous churban facing Melb schools and still call ourselves Chassidim of the Rebbe.
Stop hiding behind anonymous emails and have the integrity to stand up for what you believe.
Can you intelligently answer any of the issues I have raised on this blog without resorting to attacking me as a person?
If not, then it is because you know I am correct in my observations and have no real answers.
GET OUT OF YOUR DENIAL AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE LARGE NUMBERS OF CHILDREN THAT ARE GOING OFF THE DERECH, INLCUDING YOUR OWN!
How can we concentrate solely on doing outreach while we are causing our own children to go frie?
MIVTZOIM, LIKE CHARITY, BEGINS AT HOME!
I do not have a guilty conscious when it comes to my own child, I have done everything in myu power for him. What about you?
Shoshana-those people who want to silence you are afraid of the truth. They would rather you would not show them the elephant in the room so they can continue on in blissful avoidance of the horrible reality.They would rather we all be like the three monkeys,'See no evil, hear no evil, & speak no evil" while the community suffers.
ReplyDeleteyou ask whoever gave us the right to critcise the Rebbe's shluchim? Since when did G-d die and put the shluchim in charge?
ReplyDeleteBeis Rifkah is a modern orthodox school if that is what you want for your daugters but if you want a Chasidish school then Beis Rif. is not the one. There are even modern orthodox schools with stronger more frum hahskafas than Beis Rif have.
ReplyDeleteSuddenly a lot of you armchair geniuses are saying BR is a chassidisher school.
ReplyDeleteBR was set up as a community school and a portal to bring non yet frum kids closer to yiddishkeit. I would say over the past forty plus years from the times of Mrs Herz when BR was in Glen Eira Rd to the present, that the aims and objectives of the school have not changed.Yes there are more frum kids at the school these days but this is a result of all the hard work done by the schluchim to increase the level of yiddishkeit in Melbourne.
The question you should be asking is that, are we ready to go to the next level and have an offshoot where there is an option
that girls do not have to do secular studies.Will there will any value -add? The girls from OC
are a perfect example where in most cases they have completed secular studies as well as OC and
are a credit to the whole jewish community.
There are many Mizrachi families who send their girls to BR and boys to Yavneh.I do not hear too many complaints.
Melbourne is not as insular or protected as Crown Heights and you cannot compare the two.Yes there are issues with manners,modesty etc.
Look at the alternative.If BR was not around,how many more jewish girls would assimilate.
Currently I do not live in Melbourne.Being frank, the concerns with my teenage children are how to keep them away from drugs,sex and alcohol. Yes they attend a jewish day school interstate and I am very proud to say my girls attended BR for many years and have moral values.
Wake up Melbourne , you are lucky with what you have , do not destroy a good thing!!!
Many of us do not want our daughters to have only moral values, as you put it, but to have Chassidc values too, which Br is not giving them enough of.
ReplyDeleteOf course things are better than if BR did not exist, but by saying this you are creating a false argument in order to avoid the real probkems we are discussing.
For those who want to raise Chassidishe girls BR is not a help but a hinderance. Crown Heights has nothing to do with this. There are other BR's around the world with better Chassidic standards than BR of Melbourne.
A community schools does not serve the needs of Lubavitcher families. What abut us? Why do we lose out?
Which OC girls are you talking about that are perfect examples to the community? I've never seen them Are we thinking of the same city?
ReplyDeleteFair go mom of daughters. I can certainly understand the opinion of Anonymous from "out of town" who doesn't have the benefits that we have.
ReplyDeleteB"H we have good frum Jewish schools but what is wrong with wanting them to be better? The Rebbe constantly emphasised that unless you are improving and achieving more you are sliding back.
To Mom of Daughters,
ReplyDeleteDid the Rebbe Rayatz want BR to be specific for Lubavitcher families or for all Yidden.
Without meaning to be disrespectful to you I believe you are putting your requirements before Klal Yisroel.Why do Chabad
setup schools globally?
To bring people closer to Hashem or to become Lubavitchers.
to anonymous, i agree Chabad schools were set up to bring students closer to Hashem but never at the expense of our own children's Yiddishkeit and never by watering down the Torah. The Rebbe spoke clearly against lowering our own Torah standards in order to attract outsiders. He said in sichas that a shaliach must never compromise his own avodah level in order to have an impact on a place. The Rebbe spoke strongly about this and said that when we water down our Torah observance because we think we will attract larger numbers of student by doing this, we do not acutally acccomplish anything good. BR admin loves to proudly tell all about the growth in numbers of students but this has been accomplished by lowering standards so low that there are hardly any standards left in BR that are what Chabad follows. It is not just about quantity but quality is important. BR should set the standards for tznius and avodah and if some parents do not comply then they can go elsewhere. But BR applies no standards at all hence our own daughtes are being negatively influenced by the students who are less frum. It is silly to say that I am putting my requirements before those of Klal Yisroel because what is the point of having a school to make frie girls frum and at the same time it is making frum girls to be much less Chassidic than the Rebbe would have approved of? Surely the school can work to making the frie girls frum while also not putting the frum girls at such a high risk as they are now of either becoming non-Chabad or even non-frum.
ReplyDeleteTo the anonymous comment who asked the question
ReplyDeleteDid the Rebbe Rayatz want BR to be specific for Lubavitcher families or for all Yidden.
"Without meaning to be disrespectful to you I believe you are putting your requirements before Klal Yisroel.Why do Chabad
setup schools globally?
To bring people closer to Hashem or to become Lubavitchers."
This above statment/question makes about as much sense as saying 2+2=5. What a weird way to try and make excuses for the sad state of affairs at BR. It means you believe that in order to bring Jews closer to Hashem the Rebbe wanted us to make schools that do not follow his directives and guidelines and do not educate students in the derech of Chabad.
What a weird misconception. Or is it just a way to make rationalizations for the ultra-modernity of the chinuch being offered at BR?
Are we talking about the entire Beth Rivkah including primary school??? If you look at each and every year level in primary the teachers are chassidish and the way the subjects are taught are in a chassidish manner, the performances are of a nice eidel quality, assemblies are held for chassidishe yomim tovim etc. So are we just complaining about the secondary school?? Same applies to Yeshiva primary take a look at each and every teacher from prep thru to year six and find the the not eidel, not chassidish one...you'd be hard pressed to. So let's not tar everyone with the same brush
ReplyDeleteThere is the assumption that no one cares or is doing anything about the situation. If you look at the past few years there has been a major attempt at helping the frum kids stay strong and that is the advent of the Shluchim to Y.C. and the Shluchos. Money was outlaid and the Executive made an executive decision that this is a worthwhile project. It seems to be working out well. I'm not saying it is the be all and end all but it does show that someone cares!
ReplyDeleteFrom'The Educator's Handbook"
ReplyDeleteRabbi Hodakov wrote,
"There is always room, not simply for improvement, but for one quantum leap after another. Indeed, this must become an end in itself: to reach the ultimate in perfection.
Take the average workman, whose handiwork may be riddled with imperfections: and the master craftsman, whose handiwork is capable of reaching perfection of beauty and form. How do we account for the contrast? The answer lies in the fact that the latter mastered his craft, and that night and day his thoughts return to the same question: how can I reach an even higher level of mastery?
Similarly, you have the teacher who does his job conscientously and makes good use of his time: but he is not a master of the craft of teaching--this individual must work harder to perfect his craft, by seeking out experts in the field, watching them in action and assimilating all that he can. Which is not to say that even the finest craftsman cannot reach a higher level--the only limits are those one set for oneself!"
Yes, Mr G is very proud of his school and the high achievers. I feel sick when I see the annual end-of-year advt in the AJN, praising the students who got AAA. What happened to the not-so-good students? They were expelled, so the school's stats will look good!
ReplyDeleteYes, the end-of-year "pat on the back",AJN advt, should include the numbers told not to sit, told to leave in year 10, or expelled.
ReplyDeleteFour years ago a russian boy expelled from Yeshiva, ended up in prison and later committed suicide! Funny it was NOT put in the AJN next to the grade AAA results !!!!!!!!
Should the AJN show a false picture from frum, chassidic, torah-true jews?????????
we should petition all jewish schools to stop their offensive end-of-year AJN advertisement, when they show off, cause jealosy from goyim and cause upset to students who either failed or sat in public schools, because of high fees! WE WANT TRUE STATS OR NO STATS
ReplyDelete"Jealosy from goyim" is the last reason we should not do something. We do not live in a ghetto anymore.
ReplyDeleteTo Mom of daughters,
ReplyDeleteI understand where you are coming from,however what does BR do.It is like being on a tightrope,if you push frumkeit to far ,there is a risk you lose many Baal Teshuvas or we risk frum girls being exposed to frei practices.
This is why I believe you need a balance.
Let me ask you this question.
I invited a family for first night seder this year.I knew they were going to drive to my place,however the single mother and 2 teenage daughters had never been to a seder,did not know of smura matzo or mitzvos of pesach before, and told us had they not been invited would have gone to a non kosher restaurant and eaten chometz.Was I wrong in what I did.
To Shoshana,
ReplyDeleteyou may think I put 2+2=5,but i will not be derogatory to you.
you comment on everything and do not and have not had a child at BR.
My message for you is:
Look at the good things BR and YC have done over the past 40+ years
and not the negatives.Yes there is room for improvement and yes sometimes we need to be with modernity to connect with frei to bring them back to yiddishkeit.
Tunnel vision will not help and if we take lead from the Rebbe who was a modern thinker and brought thousands of yidden back to the fold
I am aware of the halacha of inviting a frie Jew for Shabbos and Yom Tov, knowing they may drive, and the Chabad Rabbonim paskened a long, long time ago that we can indeed invite them, because otherwise they would not be keeping Shabbos or Yom Tov at all. I used to be one of those frie people who got invited and was not observing Shabbos or Yom Tov back then. This is no chidush for me. But this has nothing to do with our subject at hand.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Immanuel Shochet once said the Rebbe was the "most modern old fashioned" man ever known!
The Rebbe used modern technology but, not once did he encourage us to compromise one iota of Torah principle or halacha in observance. Not once did the Rebbe endorse making secular studies as prevelant and as emphasised as they are in both YC and BR. Not once did the Rebbe tell the mosdos to send our girls to univirsities as a goal.
Hundreds of shluchim mekarev frie Jews without becoming modernized themselves. Hundreds of schools mekarev children while maintaining their standards in Chabad hashkafas and Chassidus. There are numerous examples of mosdos around the world that walk this tightrope between halacha and modernity much more successfully than BR of Melb. Maybe we should look to them for guidance. Those mosdos do not have girls frie-ing out at such high rates as we do, and those mosdos do not have girls looking as frie as the BR Melb girls do.They must be doing right that we something we are not doing here. Perhaps we should humble ourseves and find out their formulas?
You say I should not speak about the school because I do not have a child in it. Why can't I? Does a person have to have experienced something to have a perception about it? Does that mean no one can express a view on any subject they do not have a firsthand experience with? To say such a thing is ridiculous! And the last time I looked Australia was still a country with freedom of speech.
One does not need to have a child in the school, one only needs eyes in one's head to see that BR does not enforce any standards of tznius that the Rebbe or the Shulchan Aruch calls for. If they did, then why do the majority of the girls (many from frum homes) walk around looking they way they do?
That is not to say they are not lovely girls per se as I know most of them are, but they have not had the proper Chassidishe education, through no fault of their own.
One more comment-to say that I should look at all the good BR and YC has done for the past 40 years --I agree that alot of good has been done. My husband is a product of Rabbi Groner's YC ad for that we are grateful,B"H.
ReplyDeleteBut that was in the past. Things have changed. I will make an analogy to the Catholic Church--that is like saying to someone who wants to deal with the issue of pedophelia in the Church today, that is not really so bad because look at all the good the Catholic Church has done for the last 1500 years.
No one is denying that YC and BR have done alot of good. But do not continue to use as a means of defesne and as a way of deflecting from the present day problems we are facing. And these problems should not be minimized as they are truly monumental--the very spiritual survival of the next generation of Jewish youth of this city are at stake! To use the Rebbe's analogy, the house is on fire and many of us just sit there and wait for it to burn down!
In order to solve a problem we need to first GET OUT OF DENIAL AND STOP PRETENDING IT DOES NOT EXIST!!!
That is my goal in writing on this blog--to get people to recognize and admit our situation, before it is too late for even more Jewish kinderlach. We can still save many neshomas if we act now! But the hour is late.
Ad mosai!
Very interesting comments made by all.My daughter who use to attend BR in primary school stated that unless you are Lubo, the non Lubo girls were looked down upon as second class citizens.
ReplyDeleteCan YCBR survive if the school stops all secular studies after year 10 (or equivalent to comply with legislation)and all students to comply with the same dress and behaviour standards as Adass.
Is there any reason to think the Rebbe wanted Yeshiva and Beth Rivka to stop teaching secular subjects after year 10?
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe wanted the approach to secular subjects be that they were secondary and subservient to the kodesh studies. The Rebbe spoke at length on this subject and you can research this easily.
ReplyDeleteBS"D
ReplyDeleteGreetings to all readers.
This manner of commmunication is non other than a modern, sophisiticated form of 'pashkville'.
In fact, I would define this blog as a 'virtual pashkville'.
It is also taking out your (our) dirty laundry and showing the whole wide world.
If you find ways of justifying this 'cry out' forum, then perhaps you might want to make a cheshbon hanefesh and look at the 'bechein' of this blog. Look at results and outcome.
Be honest and make and ask yourself/ves.
Has the blog been productive in a positive manner? or has it perhaps caused virtual 'rechilus' and 'loshon horon'?
Are you people achieving anything? Have you managed to make changes?
I for one have plenty of criticsm on various community & chinuch related issues myself. I do not go out and speak publicly. 'Lo zu haderech!'
I am sure that the Rebbe would not approve either. There are plenty of sources for that!
You guys are making a terrible terrible chilul shem shomaim and chilul shem Chabad.
Please put a stop to this immediately!
One of Anash
Where have you been, mate? Our dirty laundry has been washed, dry cleaned, and aired years ago.
ReplyDeleteHear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
ReplyDeleteTo Mr Anonymous, after reading what you have to say. If you have issues with the community, how are you dealing with them? Certainly it seems that any effort made by others doesnt seem to acheive anything. So lets have some positive suggestions on how we can make changes for the better in our community. Or are you just one of the people who have been sitting on the committees resisting the change. Since the community at this stage has no other forum to air their thoughts, this will have to be made into the forum until the community leaders actually lead and are prepared to talk to people in a serious light and make real change for the betterment of the community.
ReplyDeleteFelafel,
ReplyDeleteSo the laundry has been cleaned?
Doesn't seem so.
Do you propose to continue with this derech?
Again I reiterate.
This forum is a 'virtual pashkville'!
Let it be known.
you are also responsible for a pashkvil by making an anoymous comment.
ReplyDeleteI am trying my best not to let this blog get out of hand but people have been frustrated for so many years that sometimes anger has to come out.
ReplyDeleteI regret the need for discussion of such negative topics but something must be said and, more importantly, done. The time has come for the PTB to realise that change is a necessity.
Was the person who told the emperor that he has no clothes on also doing a Pashkville?
ReplyDeleteI think he did the emperor a favour.
769....if I remeber that fable correctly, the one who said, the "emperor has no clothes" was murdered by the emperor for saying what everyone else knew but, would dare not utter!!
ReplyDeleteBut it is only a fable, right? ;^)
Andy from Darwin has a message for all of you:
ReplyDeleteIf its hazardous fix it or get somebody who can. Remember the standard you just walked past is the standard you have accepted.
I shall always consider the achievements of YC and BR as remarkable.Look what we have here! Y.C., B.R., Y.G., O.C. K.M. and many Chabad houses throughout the metro area. This is all the Rebbe's koichois at work. In spite of all critics and their criticism. Yad hachassidim alyoinoh!
ReplyDeletei have no dictionary. What is the meaning of "PASHKVILLE" ?
ReplyDeleteWhat is PTB ?
My husband attended YC during the 1970's. Back then it was set up as a school to mekarev children like him from non-observant homes.
ReplyDeleteBut the kids from observant frum homes did not go to the same program he went to. The frum kids had an Ohlei Torah program designed for frum kids. The kids from the Ohlei Torah classes were the children of shluchim, Rabbis, and frum balabatim. They had little interest in secular studies or uni.
My husband becamse fully relgiious from YC and by the time he took VCE, he had lost interest in secular studies and went on to study for many years in Morristown Yeshivah in the US for many years.Most of hiss classmate are frum today.
Certain school officials got jobs in YC and decided to eliminate the Oheli Torah program. They combined the kids from the frie homes with the kids from the frum homes in the same program. This is when the problems began.
The influences from the frie world today are pervasive and insidious. It is nearly impossible to keep the children of frummers from being affected by the the children of the frieyers.
The two catagories of children must be kept separate if we are to stop this scourge of children leaving the fold.
Kids from frum homes have different educational needs as those from frei homes.
This is why I believe reform of YCBR will not solve our problem. What we need is separate Chassidishe schools for children from frum backgrounds. It worked once before and it will work again.
correction--my husband said he thinks that out of his class of approx. 36 students one third are either Shabbos observers or frum today.
ReplyDeleteI went to YC before your husband Shoshanah. In our days there was no Ohelei Torah and only a handful of children of Shluchim or rabbis or even shomrei shabbos. We had the vast majority of children from "traditional" but by no means shomrei shabbos or Chassidishe homes. But if I look at my class photos I would say that not one frum kid fried out and probably 2/3 of those kids from non-observant families (including myself)are shomer shabbos and kashrus etc today ( a good number wearing capotes and sheitels as well). For some reason the system seemed to work then as a Lubavitcher mossad should. Rather than inventing new and untried methods such as seperate schools (which could be argued as being extremely selfish and thus not being in accordance with the Rebbes teachings of outreach and ahavas yisroel)we may do better by not trying to reinvent the wheel but by trying to analyse why things appeared to work in the earlier years of the YBR, identify what went wrong and first see if we can fix it that way.
ReplyDeleteI think I have said enough on these subjects for now. I will sit back for now and see the following:
ReplyDelete1) will anyone take me up on my suggestion and email me so we can get a group going for a round table discussion at sds@ipimus.com.au
2) will other people with similar views identify themselves?
3) what ideas do others have in regards to positive action?
"For some reason the system seemed to work then as a Lubavitcher mossad should."
ReplyDeleteFor some reason? The reason is clear. Times were different. The frum and frei kids shared a similar cultural milieu. The world around was not full of shmutz, packaged in the most tempting way. Also, the frum parents had fewer expectations of their children. Let’s face it, the frum world has moved to the right and the frei to the left, the gap is now too wide for children to cope with.
"Rather than inventing new and untried methods such as separate schools"
New and untried? Are you kidding? Try Lub in LA, Montreal, Chicago, Detroit, Crown Heights, not to mention EY?
Mendel, some of us here in Melbourne may not be 'in the know' like you are. Please explain what you mean by looking towards examples of Lub in LA, Montreal, Chiacago, Detroit, CH, & EY?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened there? What were the problems and what did they do to try and solve them?
I've come back to look at this site after a long break and can see that we really haven't got anywhere at all. All I can see is a lot of venting and luft talk.
ReplyDeleteI would like to comment again and let me use words of Mendel as the catalyst for such comment.
Mendel gives us his opinion on why he believes results in the early years appeared to be better than today:
"The reason is clear. Times were different. The frum and frei kids shared a similar cultural milieu. The world around was not full of shmutz, packaged in the most tempting way. Also, the frum parents had fewer expectations of their children. Let’s face it, the frum world has moved to the right and the frei to the left, the gap is now too wide for children to cope with."
Although Mendel seems to agree that better results were achieved in the earlier years I don't think the reasons are as simple as he makes out.
The yetzer horoh was just as active fifty (and a hundred and a thousand) years ago as it is today - maybe in different guise but just as seductive to the members of each generation. And remember that the support and facilities available to enhance a frum lifestyle in Austraslia were negligible then - so their nisoyoin was even greater than ours - yet great results wwere indeed achieved!
I really think that the reason for success in the past was because of the misiras nefesh, tmemimisdikeit, selflessness and a true and real example of chassishkeit shown by the founding fathers. This earned blessings of success milmaalah and also earned the respect and following of the community.
We have become too self-centred, too megushem, too much emphasis on all sorts of radical shtusim (often disguised as kedushah). We need to return to basic building blocks of temimis, emmess, bitul, and warm chassidishkeit to replace the hype and radical shtusim that often masquerades as Chassidhkeit today.
Maybe seperate schools is the way to go - but it's not the sole solution - otherwise why would they be finding portable TV sets in the Ohelei Torah dorm in NY?!(Yes, it happened - twice in the past few years!)
We need a return to good old-fashioned real chassidishe principles and lifestyle. Learning Chassiuds, davening like a Chossdid, chessed and warmth with our friends instead of envy and loshen horoh. Maybe then, we will be zocheh to see our children get the right example and brochois milmayloh to grow up as Chassidishe kinder.
By all means let's talk about reforming our education system but let's do it together bedarkei noam as Chassidim should. I note that the majority of opinions on the poll conducted by Aussie echo want just that - connsultation and working together not radical separatism.
I am afraid, judging from current results, that despite all the talking there is not going to be much action. So at the very least let us start with somthing that's in the control of every singlr individual. Let's work on our own Chassidishkeit - we can't call on others to change and improve if we are not willing to do so ourselves.
May our efforts be constructive and earn the blessings milmayloh that will ensure postive results for the betterment of our community and the future of our kinderlach.
The examples I gave are schools that by their very nature (curriculum, standards demanded etc), only cater to frum kids.
ReplyDeleteI am not for one moment suggesting that YC or BR stop catering to non frum or modern families. All I am saying is that we need (in today’s day and age) to make a school that caters exclusively for those frum families who want such a choice.
The experiment that is YBR is clearly not working TODAY, even if it did in the past.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a Lub kehilla the size of Melbourne anywhere in the world, that did not have an exclusively frum school.
aussie shaliach--you changed your tune from some of your last posts. What brought you around to see that all is not peaches and cream?
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile you preach to us about positive action? Who are you? Why are you hiding while spouting lofty kedushadike ideals?
As I said on this site several times before--the first step is to identify ourselves so we can work together.
Anyone who wants can email me (I will respect confidentiality)
sds@iprimus.com.au
Let's do someting bepoel mamash.
Aussie shaliach: Thank you for your post again. For what its worth I happen to agree with most of your sentiments.
ReplyDeleteChange is something that doesn't happen easily and will not happen soon in this situation. I am leaning more and more to the opinion that we should start our own schools. The problem is that takes lots of money and even more committment from the community.
But we can do all that and work on our chassidishkeit as well.
AE, money is not the problem.
ReplyDeleteMelb is one of the wealthiest Chabad communities in the world.
There are countless of successful mosdos in Chabad that started out with little money but losts of determination and committment.
Once we have the resolve, the ratzon, and our purpose is clear, resources will come. The Abisther will open the doors!
Is the old collegian's magazine "SCHOOL TIES" truthful ?
ReplyDeleteIn the photo section called "where are they now"? Photos of classes about 20 years ago appear with the ex student's current job. Most are "high flying" professionals, lawyers,etc. If someone is unemployed, they write Businessman or self-employed (instead of writing "dole bludger" or failure) Isn't this a lie?
Isn't this magazine being used to paint a glossy false image of Yeshiva Colleges? Anyone agree?
untied, all of Chabad is great at PR.
ReplyDeleteUntied
ReplyDeleteMost of the people are themselves asked how they want to be described and it is because of their "shame" that they may list themselves as businessman etc. This is not an editorial decision. Usually a member of the class is contacted who then contacts all the class memebers. Definitely not an exercise in PR
I did not change my point of view Shoshanah. I said all along that I was against a seperatist solution and basically still maintain that point of view. I personally do not believe that ultimately it is the solution nor is it our derech. What I have added here is that if there is a consensus to change our school and education system in our community as is apparently indeed gaining momentum (at least in theory) then it should be through a constructive and united effort not a divisive "revolution".
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, at this time I really don't see even that happening (have you received one response to your call for contact Shoshanah?) Therefore I have tried to reiterate an alternative way that is immediately available to all of us to do in our own way. It mightn't be as exciting or revolutionary to the activists amongst us, but improving our commitment to a Chassidishe lifestyle is something we can all work on in our own way and must be at least be a start to positively influencing the problems confronting our comunity
I'm not looking for publicity - positive or negative- and it's not important who sprouts the ideals Shoshanah - either they are correct or they are not. Revealing my identity would not add to my contribution at this time. If I felt it would indeed help the situation I would (will) reveal my identity but like Aussie Echo I think it is wiser to remain anonymous at this time.
Would the Birtish aristocracy, for example, want to change things? Of course not. Why should they? Does any entrenched establshment want to change? Of course not! The status quo serves their interests.
ReplyDeleteThe PTB could care less if we vent our ideas and feelings on this website because our venting is not the slightest threat to the status quo.
The PTB might actually see this blog as positive from their point of view, because once people air their frustrations they experience a catharsis, they get it out of their systems, and this energy is used up and does not get translated into any real action.
Action would be a threat to the PTB's interests. Do not expect any response from the PTB here on this blog. They have no reason to answer us as long as we don't do anything that threatens their positions of authority. They are still very much in control no matter how much we write or vent.
For the PTB this is not about the best interests of the children, nor is this about doing the Rebbe's work--for the PTB this is all about control. That is why reform of the present system will not work, because the PTB will still manipulate things so they are in control. Tzemach Atlas from www.mentalblog.com is correct when he talks about Glasnost. Glasnost is not a revolution, it is not reform, rather Glasmost is something entirely different. Glasnost is when the present system simply falls under its own weight, when it simply fails to serve its own purpose, its own reason for existence becomes obsolete, and a new system is put into place, not out of a hostile, antagonistic revolution, but out of a deep need to survive.
Glasnost will occur in Melb when we realize that if we are to continue as a Chabad community, if we are to survive into the next generation as frum Jews, then we as a community must adapt. And when we do the PTB will not be de-throned--they will simply become irrelevant.
And I have not yet received any responses to my offer for anyone to email me to begin a plan of action.
To "ochenvay", I have also found that ironically, there is an arrogance amongst too many shluchim. This attitude is that they know better, they were chosen by the Rebbe, and therefore regular balabatim cannot possibly give them suggestive advice or criticism. They often fawn all over the unaffiliated, whom they can dazzle and impress, because their Torah knowledge is so much greater than the unaffiliated, but they cannot accept being challenged by other frum Lubavs.
ReplyDeleteThat is also why many shluchim do not mix with other Jews from other frum circles. They simply do not want to be questioned or challenged in any way by Jews who may know something more than those who are unaffiliated.
And often they have a paternal superior attitude towards the balei teshuvah, whom they love when they look up to the shluchim for guidance, as parental figures. But once the balei teshuvah 'grow up' and grow out of this hero worship stage of the shluchim, the shluchim will often show resentment towards them.
I have often observed that being frum, being a shaliach, does not neccessarily mean that one does not have certain psychological issues that one has to work on. Shluchim should realize that they,
like all of us, may have some problems as well, and some of them would do themselves and their communities a service by putting their own houses in order.
Ochenvay,your message above was at July 29, 2005 3:43 AM. You are either a mother of a baby or an insomniac, perhaps?
A lot of people have written about the "Chassidishe" thing and
ReplyDeletethe way I read it it is either chassidishe way or nothing.
Chassidim as we know it has only been around 240-50 years .As far as I understand it the Baal Shem Tov took it to the masses to break the elitist arrogance of the yeshivas and showed that evey yid could learn and all yids were equal and loved by Hashem independanyt of their social status.
What has happened now.The Chassidim have become arrogant,
loshon hora is rampant,social inequality exists as money talks.
Learning is looked down upon if not done in a Lubavitch Institution and Chassidim suffer from the "Rebbecentric" syndrome.
What happened to learning the masterpieces of the other Rebbes.
I ask, how many Lubavitchers have learntthe works e.g. of the Mittler Rebbe.As Reb Pinchas Reizes said 'The Mittler Rebbe had chassidus flowing through his veins".Ask students from YCBR Senior school or YG/OC and very few would know if any about the works of the Mittler Rebbe or Tzemach Tzedek.With this tunnel vision in the community,YCBR needs to cater for everyone.
I do not care if you a chassidic,mitnagid or whatever,but Ahavas Yisroel comes first.
YCBR students' level of learning in Chassidus and Torah in general is pretty low b'klal, never mind if they know the works of the past Rebbeim of Lubavitch. I have seen 13 years old who cannot say birkas hamazon b'al pe, more than a few. And 16 year olds who cannot tell you the seven Lubavitcher Rebbe's names in order, or even read Hebrew properly.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat has happened now.if not done in a Lubavitch Institution and Chassidim suffer from the "Rebbecentric" syndrome.
What happened to learning the masterpieces of the other Rebbes.
I ask, how many Lubavitchers have learntthe works e.g. of the Mittler Rebbe.As Reb Pinchas Reizes said 'The Mittler Rebbe had chassidus flowing through his veins".Ask students from YCBR Senior school or YG/OC and very few would know if any about the works of the Mittler Rebbe or Tzemach Tzedek.
>>>
And THAT my friends is the reply to those writing that Chabd is 'separatist' and they have no shaychus with other charedi or chassidic groups.
The vast majority of Lubavitchers these days HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO SHAYCHUS WITH ANY CHABAD CHASSIDUS - EXCEPT FOR THE ORKS OF THE REBBE.
Not from other chasssidus rebbes and not from our own.
When was the last time you heard the Baal Shem Tov quoted by us??
No one seems to count except the rebbe!!!
Isn't this a ridiculous way of hafotzas hamayonos?
To old time chossid,
ReplyDeleteYou have summed it up beautifully.Our knowledge on chassidus will only be enhanced by learning from all Rebbeim.
The Alexander,Bobov, Satmar and Tchebiner are all Einekle of the Alter Rebbe.
Why not learn their works.It will not hurt us.There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning the last Rebbe's work ,however do not forget the other Rebbeim.
They were the foundation on which we can show the world today on how much they sacrificed to ensure the future of Chabad learning institutions as we see it today.
Falafel,
I value my yichus,although I am not a Lubavitcher Chossid,it is an honour for me to say I am an einekle of the Alter Rebbe.
ber you are a stirrer!
ReplyDeleteWhy post this.
We have more important things to worry about.
769 - ber said what he did because it obviously really an dtruly bigs him that Adass has a 99.75% success rate.
ReplyDeleteHow much smaller are they than Yeshiva community?
I would say, seeing the numbers of men and boys who attend tefila there every morning and evening - that they are a MUCH LARGER community that Yeshiva!
As once explained to me by an Adass oldtimer, "we have exactly the same number of mispallelim in the mens sections of the shul at Kol Nidrei -as we doo on the average weekday mincha-maariv"
THAT says it all!
When a child sees that his dad is makpid of tefil;a betzibur 3 times a day, 7 x a week, he or she will also have respect for Yiddishkeit.
But if a child notices that the father only goes to shul when it is 'convenient', then that chiuld will also treat Judiasm as a religion of convenience.
You cannoit fool your children!
Amerikaner - I agree with you 100%. I don't know if your numbers etc are correct but we, as a Chabad community, have to start to take a closer look at our behaviour.
ReplyDeleteWe had a bunch of people over last night and the topic was thi sblog and its contents.
ReplyDeleteOne of the older Chabadniks highly praised teh Silcoves for the brave move in being Melbourne Chabad's Nachson ben Aminadav in enrolling their son in Adass.
This person told us repeatedly that the rebbe regularly quoted teh Chazal "Velo Ah Haaretz Chosid", an am haaretz cannot be a chosid. THus he said, that we 'so called ' chassidim, who send our sons to YC when the chances are that they will become very small talmidei chachomim, and never qualify for teh chossid tag.
However the Silcoves the the other Chabadniks who have followed them, will, all things being equal, have sons, lomdim and chassidim - which was always teh rebbes dearest wish.
The speaker who spent many years in chinuch here and overseas added that if you take a look at the results of YC education in teh past 50 years with thousands of graduates, you will find that except for teh early days [when ren Arel studied there] the rate of talmiudei chachomim produced is negligable - 5% in a good year!
He said that he often drops in to Adass and speaks in learning to the bachurim and yungeleit and is convinced that their standard is at least equal to the best mosdos we have in CH or Israel.
He was strongly urging us younger parents to have the guts and do what the Silcoves, Supers and others have done, before it is too late. The other [and better] option of opening a truly chassidish Chabad school will take a while - and meanwhile we will continue to produce lots more 'am-haaretz chossids'
to dovber
ReplyDeleteMy husband and I thank your friend, this alter chosid for his compliments. Please let this person know we would very much like to contact him. We promise to keep his name out of the blog or public view if that is his wish.
my email is sds@iprimus.com.au
Thanks for the chizuk!
Sorry shoshana I cannot.
ReplyDeleteHe has serious reasons why he cannot talk publicly and which really pains him. [He knows he is doing the wrong thing. And that is probably why he admires you so much - as you DO have the guts to follow your convictions 100%]
But he felt a 'chov kadosh' [his words], to somehow publicly praise the 'giborim' who so heavily value the future of their children - as to take drastic steps that people like yourself undertook.
He admitted that if he had younger children today, he would have done the same - even at the risk of losing his employemnt at YBR.
I will again ask him if he is willing to contact you - but at the moment - don't hold your breath.
to 769
ReplyDeleteyou never made it to 770? what a pity you cant go the last mile
dovber, I have heard the same over the years, many people who agree with me and support what I have done with my child, but cannot speak out because they won't bite the hand that feeds them. Understandable. Also shows how the PTB can keep people silent and under their control. Thank G-d we do not make our parnasa from the system.
ReplyDelete