It pains me to have to write this post but, after all the comments on this blog and the discussions I have had with Anash over the last 10-15 years, the time has come for the chinuch problem at Yeshivah and Beth Rivkah to be addressed. The tragic situation of our children having less of a commitment to frumkeit than we would like and even leaving yiddishkeit altogether is touching many, many families in our community. Not just the less committed families but even those families genuinely frum and chassidish. It is an epidemic that is effecting everyone and we, and our leaders, cannot just sit back and blame the families of these children. We send our children to a school that is under the name of the Rebbe and we have a right to expect a certain basic standard of Jewish education.
Obviously the schools cannot take 100% of the blame. We cannot blame the administration and say “I pay my school fees now you educate my children correctly” - if we ourselves do not live in a chassidish manner.
I am going to list all the problems as I see them and some possible fixes and solutions. I admit that I am not an educator or rabbi but feel that many of the issues can be addressed by applying some plain common sense.
Judging from the comments made about the education at YBR I expect there to be many comments here. There is no necessity to name particular people who you feel are to blame – despite being loshon hora it will not contribute to the solution. If names are mentioned I will delete the comment.
Another request I would like to make is that you read your comment before publishing it. Spelling and grammatical mistakes make the comment difficult to understand and sometimes even changes the meaning.
I would like to make a request of the Yeshivah Executive and administration. If you are reading this I welcome your input in this matter – the best input would be to explain how you will rectify the faults. If you email me at aussieecho@gmail.com I will publish your reply.
As I see it these are the problems at YBR (in no particular order of importance):
· How is the money received spent? Fees are high, especially if one has more than 2 children in the school, but there does not seem to be accountablilty. Every organisation and business has to produce at least a balance sheet or profit and loss statement. For countless years money has been asked (demanded) from the communtity but there is no accounting for how this money is spent. This leaves the school and executive open to accusations of financial mismanagement.
· In contrast there are people who are not paying full fees but who can take their families on overseas holidays, drive new cars, have expensive and ostentatious simchas etc. This problem, which will certainly be pointed out by the administration. How does the school get people to pay equitably - this is a difficult problem wih no easy solution.
· The influence of non-frum children in the school seems to be out of proportion to their numbers. In the 60s and 70s there were more children from non religious families but many of them became frum or at least respectful towards yiddishkeit. Today it seems that kids from frum familes are leading others astray.
· Teachers, particularly in Yeshivah, do not have appropriate qualifications. Men coming out of Kollel are given jobs as teachers and, despite some of them being good teachers, have never studied educational principles. Even in 770 there are organised programs for Kollel men who want to go into chinuch.
· There is too much of an emphasis on secular studies -especially at year 11 and 12 level. What appears to be important to the administration is results in external exams. It is well known that in the past students who were not academically proficient were encouraged to leave before year 11 so that the results would look good. I do not know if this still happens. As Chabad schools the emphasis should be on learning Torah and keeping Mitzvos.
· It appears to me that there is a general embarrassment among some in the administration that the schools are Chabad schools. This is more prevalent in Beth Rivkah which at times appears to be a sister school to Yavneh.
· I agree with many of the comments here that Yiddish should be taught more extensively in both schools. Modern Hebrew is emphasised at Beth Rivkah (see point above).
· This brings us to the problem at Beth Rivkah with Hebrew pronunciation. I believe that BR in Melbourne is the only BR in the world that teaches the children sefardic hebrew pronunciation. I understand that a few years ago they started teaching the kids in ashkenasic hebrew but this was stopped after a few months. This is another way that the Beth Rivkah administration distances itself from Chabad.
· While on the topic of Beth Rivkah the issue of tzniyus must be mentioned. For some reason there is very little emphasis on tzniyus for girls in the Melbourne community. This is not just the school's fault but mothers, who are into the latest fashions, do not seem to care how their girls dress. Even so the school should be at the forefront and encourage the girls to dress in a Jewish way.
· At Yeshivah in particular only children who fit into certain parameters are catered for. If children are too smart, not so academic, have problems at home etc they are encouraged to leave. We are losing too many kids because the administration is unable and unwilling to work with parents and educational professionals to ensure that "problem" kids can remain in school. The saddest thing to me is to see is children from frum families being forced to attend other Jewish schools or even secular schools.
· The father and son learning programs organised separately from the school should be expanded as part of the schools. I would like to see father-daughter learning programs as well.
· The nepotism in our schools and community is becoming ridiculous. Guests who were here for recent weddings even mentioned their observations about this to me. There are extremely talented teachers, rabbis etc who are not related to the "families" who are passed over because of this.
· There has been a recent attempt by some young parents to open an alternate school where they could ensure that their children were educated in a frum, chassidish way. Nothing came of this as the organisers were shouted at and threatened.
· The one person who did manage to start a school to help children who had problems in Yeshivah has also been threatened. While the school has started there were many behind the scenes actions by the Yeshivah executive which caused them much hardship.
There are also issues that we as parents must also address seriously:
· We cannot abdicate our responsibility of showing our kids a living example of frumkeit and chassidishkeit. While the schools have their responsibility to provide a decent education we must follow through at home by learning with our kids and just showing them how a frum, chassidish person should behave.
· I have heard too many parents criticise the teachers and school in front of their children. How can we blame the teachers for not controlling the class when the children know that their parents do not respect the teachers and will always side with their children over the teacher?
· These days I see so few kids sitting and davening with their parents in shul. How can they learn how to daven and have a feeling for yiddishkeit if they see their parents talking all thru davening and “knocking off” davening in a few minutes.
· There are lots of other common sense things that all parents, Jewish or not, should do – know where your children are and who they are with, do not let them view videos, the internet or read books without your approval, etc etc
This has been a very long post and it has taken me a long time to write. No doubt I have missed some points and I encourage you to submit your ideas in a respectful way. I know that this is a sensitive and emotional issue for some but the only way we can make a difference is presenting our ideas in a clear and thoughtful way.
Many things contribute to the errosion of education systems. One is simply the home. Here, I have observed a VERY large lack of basic parenting skills. I attribute this to the fact that the majority of people are "shoa" survivors and had no "infrastructure" to aid them in parenting. This has continued down to the present. Many here leave their children to the kehila/school. Look around on Shabbat and see how many children are davening by their parents, even for a portion of the time. This kibbutz mentality would be ok IF the educational systems were stable. People also like to wring their hands and say, "we cannot do anything. The system is corrupt."
ReplyDeleteIt REALLY is time to identify the "diseased parts" and remove them from the "Healthy". Chabad is a strong and viable system. The time has come to help the "tree" to recover, otherwise their will come a time when it will refuse to "bear fruit". Make a plan. Use the principles, motrality and ethics that Chabad is known for, stand together in strength and you WILL make a change.
Thank you so much for this post!!! I know exactly how you feel (as you well know). You addressed so many issues that make my heart break. Not so long ago, a teacher at the local yeshiva wrote a letter to the N'shei magazine. He said that too many parents send their boys to yeshiva and expect them to come home chassidishe mentchen (is that how you say it?). He was talking about BT families mostly. Families new to frumkeit who send their kids off to learn it. I do agree that education starts at home, but I don't know how to raise my children in a frum way. I'm still learning myself. I rely on the school to help me out. I have more to say, but I must let all that you said sink in. Thank you for talking about these things and for not being judgmental.
ReplyDeleteYasher koyach to Aussie Echo, whoever you may be! I agree with everything you wrote in this post! Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work! But how can we accomplish anything is everyone stays anonymous? How can we meet and communicate and make real concrete changes if we all hide behind our keyboards?
ReplyDeleteMy aim at this point is to get the administration and executive to admit that there are problems that need addressing.
ReplyDeleteIf the "powers that be" can be persuaded to reply to my/our posts that will be the first step.
assuie echo--it may be difficult for them to admit that there are problems because there are money and business interests they willl want to protect, and it will be hard to do so once they start going down that track. Let's see if they still have any Chabad values left in them. If they do not fess up, which I suspect will be the case, then we need a new system without them.
ReplyDeletePlease...one way to change things is not to wait for the "powers that be" that is how things have come to this. MANY fine and HIGHLY QUALIFIED teachers have left teaching or "religious" school systems BECAUSE of the "powers that be." Establishment is corruptable because the system does not have in place safeguards against this. The administation of the school should be above politcs etc. and should not bend to the finance officer or "powerful families". People need to have a very clear concept of exactly what they want, who they want to administer it and then not to waiver or make excuses. Waiting for "someone" to respond (very polite) is valid if this were the beginning of "troubles" with the system. Excuse me...Would you "wait" if you faily member were suffering from a deadly allergy attack or would you grab a hold of everyone and anyone and scream to get help?
ReplyDeletesorry the above was me.
ReplyDeleteDear Yetta...the school could help you by teaching you parenting skills and supplimenting what you teach your children NOT by replacing you. You may not be secure in your own knowledge to fully teach your children BUT the fact that you will honour those who would be their "other" teachers is pure and respectable. ontinue to learn yourself and your children will follow.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Mendel Gluckowsky's wife was from a Chabad Russian family. When his mother in law was a girl the family pretended she was a mute so they could keep her from going to communist schools. If she spoke in public she would be caught out and so the family had mesiras nefesh in order to keep her home by living with this lie to the communist authorities. The communist system would not take a mute child and allowed those children to be home schooled. Why did they do this? They could have thouught that she was from a Chassidishe home and it would counterract what she got at school. But her parents, who were much more learned than most of us, believed that no matter how Chassidishe their home was, the communist school could twist her mind and take her away from the fold. Many Chabad kids became communists because of the schools.They even mosered on their own parents for practicing Yiddishkeit and turned them in to the authorities because of the brainwashing they got in communist schools. What does this show us? Schools do matter!
ReplyDeletewhat does this show us? russian communist schools matter
ReplyDeleteYou missed the point--schools affect how kids see the world, Education of young impressionable minds that are still developing rapidly is very crucial to their spiritual and intellectual development. The effect of education cannot be underestimated.
ReplyDeleteSchools of course matter, but is on equal footing with home. Had R. Glockowsky's wife's family been less learned, would the outcome been the same? Chabad NEEDS to educate, for complete lifetimes, ALL chassidm, regardless of age, in the camp. Start by parenting and enrichment classes and at the same time restructure (or restart)the existing school to reflect Chabad values. Shoshanna's right. Having to hide because of a corrupt system will slow things down BUT if people have a clearly defined common goal and stand together then things will be forced to change. PS, Knocking mode kol is not constructive and undermines education as a whole. Since when does Chabad run from the modern world? Kol can be taught throught Chabad philosophy to its strength. I do it all the time.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe was very clear that the chol studies must be secondary to and subservient to the kodesh studies. The chol studies must not be an end in themselves like they are in YCBR. Historically, we lost many Jews to the Haskalah (Enlightenment) movement as we are now losing too many kids to the universities. Most of what is taught in secular studies are in direct conflict with the Torah outlook. This causes a weakening of emunah and doubts arise in young minds. This plants dangerous seeds that later cause many young people to go off the path. The Rebbe was very suspicious of secular studies and often warned us against their dangers.
ReplyDeleteLo Mishtayech, it is true that I am being very polite (maybe too polite) but until now the establishment/executive hasn't been asked these questions publicly. We have all been grumbling behind their backs and the few who have confronted them have been silenced as much as was possible.
ReplyDeleteIn a small way I hope that this blog can bring our grievances out into the open and force someone in "power" to answer us.
Surely, the rebbe knew that Chol was being taught in YBR and he didn't say anything. Why would this be? If it is such an issue the Rebbe would have let it be known to the powers that be in Melbourne to stop Limudei Chol.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what the Rebbe said and what he didn't? I know for a fact the Rebbe was unhappy that YC & BR were too close together geographically,(because of mixing) but did that stop them from keeping them in those locations?
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe told his Chassidim many many things his Chassidim ignored. The Rebbe wanted us to be smart enough to use our common sense and figure certain things our for ourselves after he guided us, we were then on our own to make choices. Lots ot times we made the wrong choices.
Let's see how the Rebbe ran his Mosdos in Brooklyn? Do the girls daven in Ivrit etc. etc.
ReplyDelete770 - last time I checked we daven in loshen hakodesh not IVRIT. I assume you went to YBR and that is why you don't know the differnece. Yet again the school is at fault.
ReplyDeletePlease I am sorry my comments on kol pulled us from the topic at hand. Let us please focus on the terrible situation of the education system. If we get bogged down in other areas, then nothing will come of our VERY REAL worries.
ReplyDeleteAgain, the existing system is rotted to a point that something MUST be done. Many VERY FINE teachers have been crushed by it, our children suffer and the community as a whole becomes an even more tightly controlled incestuous shtetl that chokes any hope of ethics,morals or values from the scene. I have been called ideolistic, but it has been my idealism that has allowed me to survive the nasty unChabadish politics in this place. Like myself,there ARE other educators who have not been beaten, (heavily bruised,yes...completely beaten down, no.)who would RUN to teach for even less money if it meant that we would be supported by a "purer" system that had the same goals as ourselves. Having said this however; there are a growing number of others who have lost their "reason for teaching" and have left the field or Jewish school system. It is NOT the lack of QUALIFIED teachers who have passion, morals and ethics...It is the system and the community that allows it to happen. Please let us stay focused and realize a change for the better through our combined strength and common goal.
Shimshy...It is easy to point fingers or to blame the current situation on "lack of leadership" BUT we are a community. All of us need to take responsibility. If we do this individually, we suffer. If we do this AS a COMMUNITY, there will be no real choice for the "head". Especially when the community has the greater good and right on its side. WE need to educate our parents in a supportive and loving way. WE need to educate our children to have a firm and unshakable identity as Chabad. WE need to educate our "heads" to understand the importance of our current crises and to move to a better solution.
ReplyDeleteshimshy, the Crown complex comprises a number of establishments, one of them being a casion. However there is also a hoteal and a hall. What if I told you that the rabbis you quote went to a wedding at Crown - would that be ok?
ReplyDelete"It is easy to point fingers or to blame the current situation on "lack of leadership" BUT we are a community. All of us need to take responsibility."
ReplyDeleteThis is the problem. We are NOT a community. Adass is a community, Mizrachi is a community. Communities get the leadership they deserve, for better or worse.
We are customers of a private business which delivers certain religious services. "We" do neither the hiring nor the firing. "We" have no say is the way things are run. When "we" complain, we are told: "if you don't like it, go to Adass".
I am told Rabbis do not enter the whole complex. I know of one person who changed the venue as Rabbi Beck would not enter the entire complex.
ReplyDeleteThe tactics of the 'powers that be _(PTB) consist of the follwoing:
ReplyDelete1)Divide and conqueor: if you dare to complain they make you believe everyone elses is quite happy with the system but you. Therefore, you become the problem. This keeps the parent body from becoming a united force against them. Individual parents they can keep in line, but a group of united parents greatly curtail their control.
2)Deflecting issues: How many times have you gone to Rabbi Groner with a problem only to met with a long list of his problems instead? He has no money for the schools, he screams. He worked so hard for so long and no one appreciates him, he yells. He's old and doesn't feel well (he should have a refuah shalaymah) he moans(then why shouldn't he retire if he cannot do the job anymore?). And then often he will expend his considerable speaking abilites at quite high modulations to the point where you feel so guilty and low for complaining that you walk away not only not having solved your problem,but blaming yourself for having expected poor old Rabbi Groner to help you. No matter what your problems are, Rabbi Groner will always tell you that his are far worse and it is your fault!
3)The propganda: all the problems of chinuch come from the home. Have you heard that before about a thousand times? The schools take no responsibility for anything. Again, you are made to feel at fault. The other propaganda lie they love to keep spreading is that we are the best because we are Lub. Or another is that this is the Rebbe's school with his brucha, so who are you to find fault? By complaining aren't you going against the Rebbe?
4) Loshon hora and the threat of social ostracisim: this works to silence most of us.
5) Threats against your kids if you step out of line. School officials will withhold educational opportunities, single out kids and treat them unfairly, if their parents speak out.
5)Secrecy and lack of transparency: Try and find out who the committe members are and what each of them is suppossed to be doing. It is 'pass the buck' all the time as it remains a great mystery as to how the school actually functions (or dysfunctions). This secrecy helps keep a few key people in power.
Menachem...WE (the concerned)need to stand TOGETHER to do this. How many of us are going to be told, "go to Adass"? One? Five? Twenty? Even if communities "get the leadership they deserve"...WHEN the community has had enough (Ad Kan) How many families are the "heads" willing to lose? At what cost to dignity? At the VERY least, At what cost to the "head's" purse? Standing TOGETHER, focused with a firm goal GETS results. Chabad was NOT meant to be a business. If the Chabad that is here is a private business...as you say it has become...who is going to redeem it?
ReplyDeleteAre you really so lost?
STAND TOGETHER and things WILL happen for the good. The time is NOW!
How true!!! If only more people had your sense, YC, and lubavitch at large, would be a lot better off! I think the biggest problem is the disproportionate value placed on secular studies...
ReplyDeleteI'm not saying it's all lost. Not at all. All I'm pointing out is that you cannot treat it like a community. What might rejuvenate a community will not help Melb Chabad, because it's run like a private business.
ReplyDeleteI see only two possible solutions:
1) A revolution in Yeshiva to get rid of the current administration - along the lines of what happened in Sydney.
2) A financial boycott of the mosdos and the setting up of new ones.
Okay Menachem, let's roll!!
ReplyDeleteMenachem...now I understand your point more clearly. You are saying that the schools etc. are in the hands of persons who sole aim is to self agrandize and to self fund.
ReplyDeleteClearly...this is NOT the direction a SCHOOL should be going.
Revolution and boycott are standing TOGETHER as a COMMUNITY.
If WE keep together and KEEP our purpose pure and proper, then change can be done. Let us continue to focus and brainstorm on this issue. It is vital to us all.
The vast majority of people here are overrating the successes o other lubavitch community. The current 'dropout rate' etc. is not unique to melbourne - in crown heights even at the prestigious schools of oholei torah etc. you would be surprised at how worldly and prust many of the students are. That, as well as the fact that when they come out, many of them can't learn all that well, and don't know how to read english either. A lot of the issues have nothing to do with the school, but with society in general today, and through technology (such as internet, mobile phones etc.) how many things are accessible to the younger generations.
ReplyDeleteI had too delete a few posts because I felt that they were loshon hora and did not serve any purpose here. Sorry Shimshy and 770...
ReplyDeleteMaven your comment was entirely correct except for point number 6. You ask who is on the executive: As far as I know Don Wolf is the chairman and other members are Yirmi Loebenstein, Shlomo Werdiger, Chaim New, Mendel New and I think Mrs Sue Suskind - I am sure there are others so if anyone knows please inform us. I have no idea what each one's portfolio is.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous...I have been talking also about communal and societal responsibility. Again...it is easy to blame "things" rather than look to solutions. When a community is focused and clearly defined, When there are educational(Children AND parental)resources and outreach projects, the "things" that you speak of are more easily avoided or better yet elevated. OUR values ARE more powerful than "things". It is up to us to reclaim the power that we have from our values.
ReplyDeleteTrust me...I know about whichI speak.
Let's find out the commitee members' email addresses (see names in aussei echo's comment above) and send them this link! Then they will have no excuse for ingoring us!
ReplyDeleteaussie you said you would delete any post with peoples nsmaes on them and now you post a comment listing these people???? double standards
ReplyDeleteThe people on the Executive are public figures. I have not said anything disparaging about them as individuals. On the contrary - I believe that they are dedicated and well meaning. The fact that their organisation has many problems doesn't mean that they are corrupt - just that they are completely out of touch.
ReplyDeleteThe surprising thing is that they all run successful businesses - why can't they run the school properly?
Simple reason. A school is not a business. A business is run for the benefit of its owners.
ReplyDeleteA business does not have to solve societal problems; just attract enough customers, whoever they may be, to fill the pockets of the owners.
QED.
Aussie echo, that is exaclty the problem-they run BUSINESSES, and they treat YCBR as BUSINESSES not as CHABAD CHINUCH INSTITUTIONS.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if it helps all of you to feel less intimidated, the PTB did everything they could to me, and I SURVIVED and THRIVED despite their bully tactics. (thank G-d). The bark of the PTB is worse than their bite. Maybe you are all afraid of shadows?
what is PTB?
ReplyDeletePTB=Powers That Be
ReplyDeleteThe PTB could not care less what we say but are very afraid of what we may actually do!
I think people need to know that they are not alone in this struggle. The fear is that by identifying people BEFORE a group is formed properly, leaves individuals open to attack. I am not a diaspora mentality type, BUT I have learned a few lessons about dealing with these types monopolies. It is better to be within a group of say, 15 families,(united and purposeful) than to be singled out for one-by-one bullying. Shosh has a good idea in emailing...ALSO Menachem has a good idea in boycotting or ?. Can you imagine the hysteria (to the head's threatened pockets)that would be created by the mass walking out of even 5 families? Especially if their spokesman was available to comment on the reasons why? I usually do not advocate public discipline but I feel when you are faced with the deteriation of the kehila and the consigning of our youth to a very bleek future...well if it has to be, it has to be. Are there any other ideas? So far it is a good start.
ReplyDelete" I am yet to hear one REAL solution to all the problems raised. "
ReplyDeleteAfter more than 20 years of institutionalized neglect, you want a quick, easy and painless solution?
Reb Pipik...there has been many fine ideas. We need more ideas and a way to mobilize so that they will get done. Instead of sniping...add to the answer.
ReplyDeleteYour ideas Menachem have been validated...After this long no one is looking for a quick fix...I think we just need to get moving on it. Build a solid foundation that cannot be struck down so easily.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the orange people can teach us how to cause a riot!!
ReplyDeleteSome ideas mentioned already:
ReplyDelete1) this website. Good on you AE!
2) financial boycott
More ideas?
1) demand financial transparency, legally if we can
2) set up a body of like minded parents to communicate our grievances with the PTB.
3)Start scouting around for talent. Chabad is constantly producing young rabbis who are looking for an opportunity.
4) we had better realize that the PTB will do everything they can to either shut down a new school or stop it from getting off the ground. We need to be prepared. i have some ideas I cannot type here but would have to say in a private meeting with you guys.
Ask Meir Moss in Sydney. He stood up to the chief and won as he had people power on his side. The school has had all the garbage weeded out as is already miles better!
ReplyDeleteNot only that, but now real Lubavitchers can make their own school and no-one can stop them.
ReplyDeleteThe PTB are not just committe members, but those who are associated with them too.
ReplyDeleteI am from sydney and can vouch for what 770 said.
ReplyDeleteThe school is miles better, the tzemach tzedek shule has a real community feeling, we are on a platfrom from which we can really grow, if not large numbers like melbourne, at least strong and vibrant.
Michael
There are some passionate people venting here, but why start in an antogonistic/militant manner?
ReplyDeleteAny chance of success in promoting change will only come if it is seen to be conducted in an open, level-headed, people-powered manner manner and, as much as possible, bedarkei noam. Otherwise there is a big risk of being branded as simply another version of the orange people.... unreprentative agitators and trouble makers.
Why don't those who are truly concerned call a public meeting at which the types of comments and plans that have been discussed here can be properly aired. Maybe in order to avoid attendance of obvious sonei Lubavitch, and others who have other, less altruistic reasons to agitate and make mischief (and who have obviously been commenting unconstructively on this site as well) it should be limited to parents of YBR or genuine Anash (perhaps by invitation?). If it turns out there are only a very few discontented families (as the PTB will claim) then that should indeed be known. If on the other it can be shown that there is a large concerned turn-out then the PTB and everyone else will have to sit up and take notice.
If that meeting indeed attracts a meaningful attendance, then a formal committeee of representatives can be set-up who will then be able to claim that they are not just a bunch of unrepresentative agitators but that they are empowered to act on behalf of a meaningful number of families. This community is not Sydney. Remember that the current PTB have a very solid power base and support both within and outside the community. Geurilla tactics such as some of those suggested here will backfire and simply will not work in this community.
The whole issue requires careful discussion and planning, much diplomacy and tact, if there is to be any chance of succefully garnishing adequate support and co-operation for change.
trying to be constructive, you don't get it. We do not need a popular school, we need a Chabad Chassidishe school. It does not matter how many parents want a change, the school is not teaching a Chabad chinuch.
ReplyDeleteWe Chbadniks imitate and copy therebbe in every possible way. So why is it that we don't tae the derech the rebbe gave for his institutions in CH and imitate them here? It isn't as if we live in Perth or Surfers Paradise. There are today hundreds of committeed Chabdnik families here - who if asked woul dtell the PTB that they want to follow the derech o fthe rebbe- 100%. That means reading, writing and speaking in Yiddish, It means that girls too davven in Loshon Hakodesh and not Ivrit Havara. It means girls [and their mothers] dress like chasidishe girls should.
ReplyDeleteIt mean that our Jewish teachers male and female may not have or even watch TV, go to movies and football. It means that we all [males] davven with minyan twice daily - in shul .(Why is it that Adass is packed for Shachris mincha and maariv and has about 10 minyanim of each - while our shul and associated chabad houses look so nebech??) I have more to say on this but am in a hurry.
Ikkar shachati..
ReplyDeleteIt means that Kodesh subjects are FAR MORE important than copeting w3ith Yavneha nd King David for top VCE results.
Trying to be constructive-calling an open public meeting with the PTB would be an excercise in futility. The PTB have proven they do not care and will not change.
ReplyDeleteNo one here has suggested any 'guerilla tactic' as you put it--that is utter hyperbole to even state such a thing. What has anyone said here to fall into the catagory of 'agitating' as you call it? Is demanding financial accountability from YCBR "agitating"? Is demanding a Chassidishe chinuch, tznius standards, and following the Rebbe's derech vis-a-vis limudei chol 'agitating"? Is opening a new school "agitating"? Aren't you going a bit over the top in order to defelect our focus from the issues at hand? Are you trying to keep us from acting so you can protect the PTB?
What about principles? What if only a minyan of parents want a real Chassidishe school? What if 300 parents want a Chassidishe school? What difference does the numbers of parents make when we are discussing Torah principles? The question is--what does YCBR stand for? Does it stand for Chabad principles? If so how? Many of us cannot see how it stands for anything rsembling the Rebbe anymore. That is the issue.
This article is unfairly negative. How about some arguments on the other side?
ReplyDeleteFirstly, many people say that Yeshiva used to be worse than it is now. Why not give credit for that? You complain about children from frum families leading others astray - but how about the children at Yeshiva who have stayed frum? Don't they deserve some recognition? As for the unqualified teachers, a piece of paper does not make a good teacher. You ought to look at the dedication of those teachers who stay at Yeshiva for as long as several years, with no expectation of any physical or spiritual reward.
I acknowledge that some of your criticisms are partially valid. Beth Rivkah should not teach its students to speak Hebrew with an Israeli accent. Yeshivah has a different technique; most of its students do not speak Hebrew with any accent at all. It is true that many kids are encouraged to leave Yeshiva, but is this really a bad thing? As for the alleged focus on secular studies, it would be more accurate to say that there is a lack of focus in religious studies. Finally, I agree that it would be bad if the school's administrators were ashamed of being Chabad Chassidim, but perhaps you have it the wrong way around: they may be Chabad Chassidim ashamed of being the school's administrators...
Joe, this discussion is not about a bronlow medal! It is about a school that is in a spiritual deficit. More pupils are leaving Yiddishkeit than joining yiddishkeit. Is this a situation that can be tolerated? Every student whose Neshoma is lost is a tradegy. Take for example if students would cholila be dying would you say give credit that it is only some as some remain ok. This is no different! A student from a frum home who freis out due to us is spiritual murder and we must not dare to stay silent. I have family where a child is living with a shiksa from a total chassidish home. No TV, no magazines etc. The only fault was they sent this child to a school that corrupted this poor child. This is not an isolated case.
ReplyDeleteHOW CAN THIS BE JUSTIFIED. To be tolerant while we are spiritually murdering our children.
No way!!
All this talk albeit honest and desrving makes want to frei out.
ReplyDeleteyou guys that want to start another school should contact the anash in chicago for advise on how to do it. i think there is even an aussie family that is heavily involved. find out from them what works.
ReplyDeleteSome of the abuse YC dished out to us for complaining about the lousy chinuch and the corruption of the school was the following:
ReplyDeleteMy son was in fourth grade. YC told us he could come to school and they would not throw him out but, if we did not capitulate to becoming silent and compliant, then my son would be sitting in the library all day without supervision. What about their responsibility of duty of care? Non-existent!
At the time my shver was very ill. YC officials were hassling us day and night, all hours with phone calls, even following me in the street, all to intimidate, and hassling us to meet with them under their conditions only. They knew my shver did not have much longer left in this world and we were running to the hospital day and night but, that did not stop them from their relentless bullying and threats. Hours before my shver passed away, we pleaded with them to leave us alone, but they did not let up and showed complete callous indifference to our sorrow. Where is their ahavas yisroel or basic human decency? Non-existent!
We came to an agreed amount of tuition only to find that they then billed us for 30% more what we had agreed upon wihtout any explanation as to the reason for this price hike. When we queried this they passed the buck, would not discuss the issue and told us if we didn't like it we could take our son out of the school. All this is on record in their own writing.
School officials made sure our son was not let into the proper levels of kodesh learning, they put him down a level for the Cheder program on Sundays, against the recommendations of his kodseh teachers, in order to punish us through him. What kind of educators would purposely hurt a child's educational progress? The answer is that they are not true educators at all!
They sent one of their lackeys to call me frequently and to abuse me on the phone with loud intimidating threats against me and my son. This is phone harrassment and it is illegal!
Our issues? What did we want? We wanted honesty in their financial dealings with us and a Chassidishe chinuch. Too much to ask from YC? Apparantly so!
These people do not deal honorably or ethically. This is a warning to all of you if you decide to go up against the system, you should expect gangster tactics like these, and I have not even told you the whole story.
Other people had similar experiences.
ReplyDeleteIt is all true. And I have some documentation.
The YC officials then accussed me of mosering on the school, which I never did, but if they are honest, why would they worry if someone would moser on them?
My husband and I are not liars. Ask anyone who knows us about our integrity.
the fact her son today is apparently happy and is a frum chassidishe boy!
ReplyDeleteMy biggest 'sin' for YC was that I loudly and publicly asked if they would provide us with financial transparency, That is why I scared them. what does that tell you?
ReplyDeleteI live far, far from you yet every word you write has truth and meaning for me. Why? Because I too suffer in a community with the same troubles. My heart is broken. I daven to Hashem but hear nothing. I feel that I am in prison. My children also suffer.
ReplyDeleteI urge each and every one of you to work day and night to try to change and improve your situation. Parents, if you see that an honest, respectful approach is turned away by the Powers That Be, go away from them! Plan your own schools. Work tirelessly! Make your children's future yourselves.
Remember: All your studying, your hishtadalus, your shidduchim and chasana, your parnassah, and all your efforts in This World are ONLY for one purpose: that your children will be straight, Torah-true, and happy Jews.
I am familiar with the Silcoves from Crown Heights.
ReplyDeleteThey are good people, sincere baalei teshuva who want EMES! (Like many of us.)
I believe every word of what Shoshanna says. (Besides, reaction to them from the PTB are so typical.)
to yankelpipik, even if you are correct that I copped it from YC because I did not go bidarkei naom, by saying that, what exaclty are you implying? Are u saying that I was not polite enough in my protest against their abuse of my family? Are you saying that in facce of their repugnant efforts to destroy my son spiritually and cheat us financially, I should have smiled sweetly and requested nicely that they stop? Are you suggesting that YC was justified in their abuse of us? If so, you are blaming the victim.
ReplyDeleteto Tzemach atlas: I have an entire folder documenting all of this but will not put it on the internet. We prepared it while our dispute was going on, documenting as much as we could, with all their letters going back and forth to us, and notes of our meetings and phone calls etc. It is an entire case, and I was prepared to make it public if they wound up doing enough damage to us.
Remember, I am a BT, an American and a New Yorker, and before I met up with these YC abusers, I had already been around the block a few times. I would not let them push us around. They pushed us, like they push everyone else around, and we were protecting our only child, so we pushed back. And they had all the cards in their hands, they had all the power, and the only things left open for us to do to try to defend ourselves we did, because they backed us up into a corner and gave us no choice. That made them nervous because they were not used to anyone challenging their power before. But they did not know who they were dealing with and that we would not just cave in like the others.
As Hashem is my witness, all of this is the absolute unvarnished truth.
At the time, many other people here would whisper to me privately that they had similar experiences, but then they would run away from me like scared little rabbits, afraid anyone else would hear them. Heaps of people would tell me I was correct in everything I said about the YC PTB, and encouraged me to fight them, but they left us to fight on our own. Under their breath,and they would make me promise I would never tell anyone else that they agredd with me, which of course I would not reveal thier 'secrets'. No one would come out and tell the truth but me and my husband.
YC=Yeshivah Centre incl Yeshivah College, Beis Rifkah, and many Chabad Houses, all under Rabbi Groner and his cronies.
ReplyDeleteWell I am scared of Groner, so I understand exactly.
ReplyDeleteI have heard similar hair raising stories about Chabad Down-Under from my father, who has a relationship with a family there.
ReplyDeleteThis family was so shaken that the wife, a Baalas Teshuva once an idealistic chassidishe girl who knew Shaar Hayichud ViEmunah baal-peh, has been completely turned off to Lubavitch (and more).
They actually lest Austrailia for the US for a while, but ended up returning... Truly horrific stories even if they're only half true (but I believe that they are all probably true).
People have asked me, "doesn't Adass Yisroel School system have problems too?" My answer is, "of course, as long as we are in galus there will always be problems eveywhere. But they have something YC lacks-YIRAS SHAMAYIM."
ReplyDeleteThey care alot about the kids ruchnias and they do something about it.
So to Adass I say, in the spirit of akeras hatov, for accepting my son and treating him fairly and educating him in Torah-the wheel of fortune turns. If Hashem in His infinite wisdom ever decrees that we should ever come into extra tzedakah gelt, it will never go to YC but, Adass will most certainly be high on my tzedakah list! yasher koyach!
Shoshana, will this be before or after you pay YC back for the reduced school fees you recieved when your son was there?
ReplyDeleteHow would you know if I received reduced school fees or not? Complete conjecture.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, is money everything? Even if I had gotten a discount from them, would that justify their despicable behaviour? I think not! Not everyone can be bought off.
Anonymous, I'm sure she'll pay back as soon as those who all well connected pay back what they owe.
ReplyDeletegive me a break-you are so right! What about all the favors given to those priveleged few who are connected? What about all those special deals given to the inner circle? What about the decendants of the Chabad founding fathers of Australia who do not pay a cent of tuition?
ReplyDeleteso that makes everything ok? Judging by your comments you are no better then they are. Also you admited that a reduction in school fees was negotiated with YC and they added 30% (I assume if paying full fees you do not need to come to any arrangements with the school.
ReplyDeleteSo much hatred and passion here. I actually think the melbourne schools aren't to bad, and looking around see loads of very good, frum, chassidish boys who are products of the school. Have a look, for instance at many of the current kollel members - many are products of YC. The vast majority of problems are from the families, not the school, and the families are just trying to push the blame off themselves.
ReplyDeletewell said Sean
ReplyDeleteThe above comment is trying to make all the issues topsy turvy. YC tried to cheat us and dealt dishonestly with us, not visa versa. This makes them thieves. Is a person suppossed to accept being stolen from? If I was getting reduced fees, does this justify their dishonest biz practices? Where in Torah does it state that if you are giving someone a discount then you can then be a crook too? Is a person suppossed to accept dishonest biz dealings or are they allowed to query?
ReplyDeleteEspecially egregious is this behaviour since it is from a religious institution.
My father never learned Torah, but he taught us honesty. Why is it so hard for YC Rabbis and officials to have common decent business ethics?
Why is their instituion run opaquely in complete secrecy financially? Many of us strongly suspect we know the answer to that.
Stick to the issues. The issues are corruption, nepotism, abuse of parents and students, and lack of Chassidishe chinuch by YC.
WE HAVE TO START A NEW SCHOOLS BASED REAL TRUE CHABAD. ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS MEAN NOTHING. WE NEED ACTION!
ReplyDeleteSean, the kollel guys ARE the success stories. The mechalei Shabbos, drug takers, (R"L) modern kids, etc, don't go to kollel.
ReplyDeleteIt's like saying the education system in Somalia can't be that bad, after all, look at their doctors and lawyers and politicians. All well educated.
B"H there are a number of good boys and girls coming out of the schools. Obviously it is not all bad.
ReplyDeleteBut it is really a copout and completely unfair to blame it all on the families. What about kids from chassidishe families who leave yiddishkeit? The problem with the PTB is that they are answering this question by automatically blaming the families of the children.
Just because a family is chassidish doesn't mean that they have done everything all right in bringing up their kids. And the amount of 'mechalei Shabbos, drug takers, (R"L) modern kids,', I believe is grossly overrated...
ReplyDeletePTB will never take responsbility for anything. They will always blame the families. That is part of their modus operandi.
ReplyDeleteHow many of the PTB sent all their kids to mesivta? How many of their kids are all chasidish?
ReplyDeleteIf it's all dependent on the home, why do we have people running the schools whose kids went off? Do they also not know how to bring up kids? If so, why were they hired educate OUR kids.
Lots of people walking around in Chabd uniforms but are not Chabad inside. seems like the ones running the schools are among them.
ReplyDeleteAnd while of course, there is some bad influence at the school, it's unfair to put so much blaim on them. Most of the influence is from peers - not the school - and most of this occurs in the later stages of high school, when the parents of chassidishe boys take them out of school, leaving an inbalance of numbers with a greater ratio of 'modern' boys, shifting the peer presure from those of the chassidsh/lubavitch/frum boys, to the other side...this could be circumvented by keeping frum boys in school longer, or abolishng the mesivtoh and thus creating classes of predominantly frum boys and healthy peer pressure and values...
ReplyDeleteAh, yes Sean, keep them in the school so you can ruin them further?
ReplyDeleteWhat frum parent would send their kids to a day school?
You sound like such a genius; you are probably one of the PTB.
Incidentally, in saying abolish the mesivtoh, I don;t mean not to provide the option for some people to learn full day limudei kodesh - only, that program shouold be more incoporated with the regular school program. The segregation between the two should be minimised - for instance, where possible, certain limudei kodesh classes could be shared etc. So that mesivtoh boys and regular boys feel part of the same class - only doing seperate subjects...
ReplyDelete"You sound like such a genius; you are probably one of the PTB." Far from it, though I love the emotional blackmail..though it is only such, if one has the view you have towards the PTB...
ReplyDeleteSean can't you see that your social experiment is in taters? You can no longer use eidel, pure, frum boys to influence kids that watch TV, videos, moves, go to sports, use internet, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf this did work 40-50 years ago, it doesn't now.
The frum kids need to be segregated, not integrated.
Use professional adult shluchim for mivtzoim, keep our little kids out of it.
Wasn't it so kind of the PTB to offer Shoshana a discount and then to turn around and treat her and her child like rubbish?
ReplyDeleteYC is like an abusive husband and the kehila has the abused wife syndrome. Abused wives are made to feel guilty and thankful for any crumb their abusive husbands throw them while they get pummeled. Abused wives always blame themselves for the abuse. Abused wives always make excuses for the abusive husband. The abused wife is in denial. When will this kehila get out of denial?
If I'm not mistaken,Shoshana Silcove was one of the only people to take a stand against what was developing in Crown Heights at the time, namely the 'meshichist' movement.
ReplyDeleteShe was run out of Crown Heights for her attempts to bring some sanity.Had we listened to her then, we would not have to deal with gangster elements taking over 770 and the breaking of 'Zatsal' marble plaques..........which has gotten worldwide publicity.
So in case you are wondering if the grass is greener in Crown Heights.....come and check the ammounts of 'frying out' youth you have over here.
All schools give discounts based on the financial ability to pay' Once a figure is agreed upon that is the fees. It is not conditional to 'follow the leader' or any other political matter. The fact that it is made public someones fee structure is as low as it gets. This school has no morales. So how do we expect the pupils to.
ReplyDeleteSSS
ReplyDeleteShoot Shoshana Silcove
is the only campaign the PTB have been running for years. But her child is chassidish. The PTB have alot to envy her and her husband!
Sickened:
ReplyDeleteShoshana Silcove admitted to fee reduction given to her by the school. The school does not need to tell us that.
Mr 770. r u the judge of who is and isn't chasidish? Not that I am saying the kid isn;t but I just like the way we are all so quick to judge.
ReplyDeleteDear anonymous!
ReplyDeleteMaybe our PTB should post everyones discount and if they pay. Why only the politcally incorrect?
For you to post such info. shows your true colours. It is irrelevant what SS said or did not say.
ReplyDeleteThe administration is rotten to the core.
A child who does not daven, hangs out with pretty bad company and behaves worse than a BA kid is not chassidish. If you think they are chassidish and SS's son is not then I understand where you are coming from.
ReplyDeleteWhere did shoshana say she got a discount?
ReplyDeleteAlthough it is totally irrelevant!
The problem was not that Shoshana received a reduced fee, they all do. The problem was that she didn't tow the line. To charge extra due to your politics or concern on chinuch is sick!
ReplyDeleteSHAME!!
To shlemeel, thanks for your compliment. However one correction, we were not run out of Crown Hieghts, we came by choice to care for my shver for the last two years of his life and have stayed ever since. I was not the only one who spoke out against the YECHINIKS, you give me too much credit. It is just that Hashem gave me the ability to put my ideas into writing so my name got known.
ReplyDeletewhy do you people use BA as yardstick for measuring who is frum? I know some very fine BA kids who have middos that outshine those of YC kids and even Adas kids. So please stop it!
ReplyDeleteBetter teachers need better pay, any Yungerman who has been approached to teach in Melbourne from overseas needs a home, car, salary that is too high for us to manage...perhaps it is all the reduced fee people?? you are dreaming to think that if the Centre would cease to be opaque about its dealings...huge amounts of cash would be unearthed, give me a break this is no money making institution!
ReplyDeleteBA are usually students of a co-ed school which is ossur according to ALL poskim. nobody is talking about the individual person there might even be a child at king david who is frummer than a child in YC or Adass. But we were talking about a certain standard that we call chassidish. Going to a mixed youth group or camp usually doesn't produce this level nor do the BA parents want it.
ReplyDeletefrei gvir, have you ever heard of TAX BREAKS for the rich PTB?
ReplyDeleteIf it is not a money making mosod then open the books and prove it mate. Until then lots of us will never believe you.
Frei Gvir (I hope that name doesn't suit you), Adass pays their teachers better than Yeshiva does. Many of them are qualified and extremely professional. Where do they get all the money? Their parents pay less than YC parents and there are more of them on subsidies (due to the lower average income of the parent body and the larger amount of kids per family).
ReplyDeleteLet's call a spade a spade! Mrs Silcove, DARCHEI NOAM ARE ALL SMOKE SCREENS. YC & BR are failing the students. Even one child freiing out is one too much. Some are good, look at the positive will not achieve anything but more rot. We must first identify that we have a serious problem. Living in denial is just putting the problem under the carpet and when 50 more chassidish kids are walking the streets like goyim we will blame anything and everything but still not go back to the drawing board. Every single other school has a board that is democratic. People nominate for a 2-3 year term and then elections are held. The board is responsible to the parents. If they do not contribute successfully and honestly they are voted of the board. This is the principle of civilised people. Be it local council, state government or federal government. Adass, Yavneh, Scopus etc. can have a democratic system so why do we need a dictatorship with rules of the jungle!
ReplyDeleteI doubt that Adass or any other school have a board who can make business deals to suit their own interests.
ReplyDeleteRegarding that lowlife who claims Silcoves didn't pay proper fees, I have no idea but what I di know is my brother in law who lives a much higher life style than silcoves and has 5 children in school and had to pay in total much less than silcoves.
Why? It's not what you know it's who you know!
If you have the right family connections you're ok! Otherwise shut up or else!!!
malka GOOD MORNING! This is what we have been asking for now for more than 7 years!
ReplyDeleteThe only response is abuse and someone screaming
As a Beth Rivkah graduate, I take offense to all those comments on the "chassidish level" of the students in YBR colleges. I've met many girls from lubavitch mosdos around the world, and there is no comparison of the values instilled in Beth Rivkah girls to other lubavitch girls. We have been taught the importance of respect (something obviously alot of you are lacking), mentchleikeit (ditto), good middos and been tuaght to value frumkeit and learning. You may criticise all you want, but speaking from first hand experience, I feel Beth Rivkah provided me and my classmates with a quality education in limodei kodesh and chol and instilled in us the correct values morals to lead us through life. At a recent class reunion, many of our non religious class mates commented on how Beth Rivkah has positively shaped their Hashkafah.
ReplyDeleteThe best response to all of this nonsense is no response. When someone is known troublemaker, and causes trouble just for the sake of it, they should be ignored.
ReplyDeleteShoshana - try and crack a smile for once...
Mr anonymous it is easy to accuse and abuse hiding behind'anonymous! You are an embarassment to yourself and the whole community.
ReplyDeleteEither learn to talk politely with respect or go away. This blog is not my way or the highway. Your mentality leaves alot to be desired, so please don't preach to others.
Grow up and get rid of your hatred!
So Frei Gvir, you couldn't answer the question how Adass can have more school hours, more Limudei Kodesh days, better paid teachers, and lower fees, so now you start attacking Mrs Silcove. Weather what she writes is true or not (and to many of us, it rings true) is not the issue.
ReplyDeleteYou asked about the PTB: "isn't accountable?? not doing a good job??? can anyone do better??? "
The answer is a resounding YES. Can anyone do better? Well why don't you guys resign and let someone else try. They certainly could not do any worse, even if they sat on their hands and did nothing at all.
Call elections now, and allow any Lubavitcher with children in the school to nominate.
Frei Gvir you are right. It costs a wad of cash to run YC.How else would you be able to pay for all those relatives of the PTB who got good paying jobs in YC and new cars and new houses?It costs so much to keep offering vacation time and tuition free education to all the PTB and their relatives and associates.And so many of them are not even good at their jobs or qualified for them but are in thier for life.ANd what about all the mismanagement that costs YC so much too?you are right, it all costs a wad of cash.
ReplyDeleteFrie gvir attacks me personally while he doesn't have the integrity or courage to write his name.Guess what frie gvir, not only have you made me smile but you made me laugh! :^)
ReplyDeleteDid teh rebbe REALLY want a school from where the grauates will smoothly get into university??? Of course not! The rebbe was against his chasidim going to uni. So why not do as Adass and ensure that the boys do secular - for as much as the govt requires and put the rest of emphasis into kodesh.????
ReplyDeleteAfter all we all dread the chabad dream tht out child will become a shliach of the rebbe somewhere..For that he/she does NOT need a degree. Correct??
So what do the PTB think? WHY DO THEY NOT FOLLOW THE REBBE"S WISHES???
WHY???
i am a friend of Shoshanna's and she is not only not a frustrated person but she is very intelligent and she has a great sense of humour.Lots of times in shiurim her jokes crack everyone up.She is just very honest and up front.
ReplyDeleteFrei gvir is right, I am a troublemaker-to people like him, because I raise the issues and ask the questions that make the PTB squirm. I have a bit or rachmanas for frei gvir since he is so obviously divorced from reality and totally out of touch with what is happening all around him in his own community. Unable to competently answer our questions, or deal with any of the important issues, he can only attack me personally, in a vain attempt to deflect the focus away from all the real problems. He knows that recognizing the real problems means that he and his ilk will be automatically implicated as the culprits who must accept their fair share of the responsbility for bringing our youth down such such levels (Hashem should help us all). And he already feels guilty since he is after all a Jew, we must not forget that frei gvir and his companions are all Jews just like us. And they may even be very good Jews. But the fact is that although they may be very good and worthy Jews, they are not competent to be running a Chabad school.
ReplyDeleteAt this point frei gvir seems to be shocked since he probably never realized that there were so many people who harboured such resentful feelings and had so many recriminations against the PTB. They do consider themselves to be the pillars of our community and they feel they have sacrificed and given alot in their own way. So let's try and curb our vitriol and also stick to the issues.
PTB-it is like this: we do not have anything against any of your personally, but many of us are suffering because our kids, the Rebbe's kids, are not turning out frum. And you do not seem able to do anything about it. As much as we have tried to communicate to you our grievances you do not seem to listen or care to help us. So we are asking you to have ahavas yisroel, to search your hearts, and to examine your own motives. We are asking you to feel our pain and to feel our children's pain, and the Rebbe's pain, for the tragic spiritual Holocaust that has befallen our kehila. We are in the process of losing almost an entire generation of holy Jewish children from the ways of Chabad Chassidus and we are crying real tears. Does this affect you? Can you put away your egoistic impulse to defend yourself for just a moment and open your eyes and see?
We will not fault you if you ackowledge that you tried but that you the PTB of YC is failing. We will not fault you if you ackowledge that in order to save more Jewish neshomalas from G-d forbid going off the derech that you must give up your positions to give new people a chance. In fact, if you could show yourselves to be big enough to ackowledge our problems you will most likely win our respect.
I cried when I read the above.
ReplyDeleteWords that come from the heart go to the heart!
May G-D have rachmonas on all of us and send is the Yeshua.
To set the record straight-we have in our possession a letter signed by Rabbi Y. D. Groner that all of our financial accounts with YC are settled.We owe them zero dollars.
ReplyDeleteShoshana I do not care if you owe the YC money or not cuz you wrote beautifully in your commen to frei gvir.
ReplyDeleteIf only they could care about what is best for the children they would help us or give it all up.
I know you are telling the truth. The same things that happened to you happened to me and friends of mine.The ptb is disgusting and treat us with no respect or ahavat yisroel.
The PTB are alll multi milionaires.They tell people NOT to take holidays or to get braces for their kids teeth before they pay tuition.Isn't it cutzpah of them to tell people who are struggling to get by this when they take trips overseas have fancy holiday houses and drive luxury cars?Then they refuse to explain where all the money we give the school is going.What arrogance!
ReplyDeleteHere in my community--where houses cost $300,000 to $550,000--how is it that young teachers and shluchim children are purchasing homes within 2-5 years of entering the community and beginning to work in the mosdos? Plus they fly all over the world for siblings' and friends' chasanas, family simchas, to 770, etc.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the money coming from?!
While there are clearly some problems associated with the schools, I feel that its the homes and community standards which have a far greater effect on todays youth.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the original problem - it seems clear that one of biggest problems that is responsible for the decline of chassidishkeit is the abundance of frum and Lubavitch families that own TV's and are exposing their children to the complete garbage that is on today. Just as problematic is the widespread use of chat lines on the web that allow boys and girls that might never get involved ith each other to hook up far more easily than ever before.
Another point - being comfrotable and even wealthy is a 'challenge' we'd all like to have. However, the open splurging of money on fancy, over the top celebrations, cars, electronics and more is sending a message to the children that is the antithesis of what Chabad emphasises.
Finally, as someone mentioned - the complete hefker attitude to davening - both in attendance on weekdays, and the lack of respect shown by talking and joking during tefilla, is a terrible example that the whole community sends to the youth. Tefilla is such an critical part of Judaism and Chabad that its neglect is so adverse on the children.
Further - tzniyus has declined immensely - which surely starts at home and spreads through peer pressure. While not to the extent of Bnei Akiva and more liberal schools, what is tolerated as standard is really far below what Chabad or any frum group, directs as adequate.
Finally - the easy accesibility and use of alcohol at homes, fabrengens and shabbatons is surely not a positive thing. The occasional lchaim can be called for. But look how many 16+ year olds are drunk on shabbos afternoon, and there is a problem that is clearly not the schools.
Well - I believe i have articulated enough points to ponder. there are others. And there are definietly improvements that must be made to the schools. But it must start at home - otherwise its like trying to walk up an escalator going downward.
no Rebetzin, it is no chutzpah. if you use a service, pay. Take holidays after that. If you look closely, many of us that pay our fees are not multi millionaires at all, many of us drive cars 3 models older than most, and many of us have never taken our families overseas at all, because of cost. Braces are one thing, but holidays?????First pay, then play.
ReplyDeleteBloke, I am glad someone finally mentioned the ALCOHOL issue. Since when is being plastered LubavItch? Though that is the reputation we now have. It si time that as a community we stop humouring the readiy accessibility of drink, and stop serving, or at least condoning the serving of alcohol is huge amounts to teenagers. Watching an adult drink himself till vomit point is also revolting......
ReplyDeleteto anonymous, you act as if there is no misue of YC funds and no favortitim.
ReplyDeletestop the few connected one from getting extra favors and let the school feeing parents know where all the mney is going then the multi millionaire PTB can tell the rest of the hard working people that they are not entitled to their un-fancy much needed holidays. we are not talking about luxury holidays but drives to the mountains.
the PTB does not worry about the ppeople who are connected who do not pay their fees but they only worry about the people wo are not connected and they rudely and aggresively try and collect while they let the non-paying connected people off without bothering them for the money.
'Finally - the easy accesibility and use of alcohol at homes, fabrengens and shabbatons is surely not a positive thing. The occasional lchaim can be called for. But look how many 16+ year olds are drunk on shabbos afternoon, and there is a problem that is clearly not the schools.'
ReplyDeleteproblem is that every shabbos kiddush in shule alchohol is placed on every table, no supervision etc, alchohol at kiddushim or farbrangens should be entrusted to reliable adults who would administer distribution.
All this discussion about the schools will ultiately lead to nothing concrete.Under communism after Stalin they had the Politburo that had a facade of being democratic but was still totalitarian.Tzemach Atlas is correct in saying that we need a Glasnost.The PTB of YC is the Politburo.They could care less if we sit here and write about them all day.The only thing we can do to change things is to make a whole new system.Let the totalitarian YC system rot and decompose because it is in the process of slowly self destructing.We need to concentrate on building something new and better for the children coming up in the future.
ReplyDeleteI believe you need to get R Arel (and hence some G'virim close to him) behind the project. It can be done if you are prepared to cop the flack.
ReplyDeleteThere are enough good people working at YC to keep it from self-destructing. Ironic that these truly good people keep the system afloat
ReplyDeleteyankelpipik,why do I get the feeling ou do not really care about the welfare of the children's chinuch but that you merely want to put down anyone who is concerned?
ReplyDeletere: the alcohol situation. Anyone who is at the kiddushim on Shabbos knows that only a limited amount alcohol is provided and it is entrusted to someone to distribute. Also where are the parents of these 16+ boys who are drinking? If you let a child play on the street without supervision surely you can't blame the motorist for hitting him. Where were the parents who should have been watching the kid.
ReplyDeleteI would never discuss any plans on this website lest the YC PTB then make their plans to squash any efforts to set up what they perceive as competition.Ask the many good Chassidim who tried to establish new mosdos for frum students how the YC PTB successfully squashed their efforts through the same type of gangster tactis described by SS.having said that there is a school that has succesfully been set up recently.The YC PTB tried their usual intimidation and threats but there was one courageous woman who was not fazed by it and this school is starting to flourish.Yankelpipik, your coments reveal you to be 'one of them' or at least a sympathiser of the PTB and their agenda.
ReplyDeleteWhen I started writing to this site about the community/school problems, there seemed to be a lot of fear and frustration BUT people were being intelligent about looking for solutions and making concrete plans.
ReplyDeleteYESTERDAY however; the tone of this site bogged down into attacks against individuals who voiced opinions/solutions. Shoshanna and others were attacked for petty little reasons AND TO MAKE THINGS WORSE...people started "back and forth" about these petty items.
HOW IN THE WORLD IS ANYTHING GOING TO GET DONE, IF PEOPLE CANNOT RISE ABOVE BACK-STABBING AND STAY FOCUSED ON THE TRUE ISSUE? Politics aside, the degeneration of the community and school is bigger than any "quabble" you may have about particular person(s). PTB are counting on people turning against one another...this keeps us from forming a united front against "power". Do not play into their hands. Focus on the issue, EDUCATION OF PARENTS,COMMUNITY AND THE CHILDREN,not everything else.
The other points of concern will be addressed more properly AFTER the above is accomplished.
Aussie? What do you have to say?
Also...
ReplyDeleteDoes not BR/YC have a charter? Or By-laws? Most established places have an original staement that sets up the tone and modis for the school. Find it and see if the PTB kept within the original parameters.
If they did not, you have them for breaching the contract.
lo mishtayech, you ask for a by laws and a charter? We asked for that eight years ago and that is when the PTB began to bully us. Our request for these things sparked their entire vendetta against us. They felt threatened that we had requested it and immediately came down on us like a ton of bricks for even asking for these things which are considered regular and normal in all other institutions. We were treated like their enemies for even broaching the subject of rules and guidleines for their school. Maven is right, the PTB is the Politburo and we need Glasnost. The only solution is to provide competition, a real school the Rebbe would be proud of.
ReplyDeleteThis iformation I was speaking about is certainly not JUST kept in a vault in the clutches of PTB!
ReplyDeleteSomewhere there are duplicates...
BY USING RIGHT, staying strong and uniting..there can be a change. (NEW SCHOOL) By using the orignial charter...there is a copy somewhere...your fight will be more "even handed". They flex muscles, you bring up salient points. Uniting (Staying above pettyness) and coming at this in a methodical, logical, strong and systematic way...success can be made.
This iformation I was speaking about is certainly not JUST kept in a vault in the clutches of PTB!
ReplyDeleteSomewhere there are duplicates...
BY USING RIGHT, staying strong and uniting..there can be a change. (NEW SCHOOL) By using the orignial charter...there is a copy somewhere...your fight will be more "even handed". They flex muscles, you bring up salient points. Uniting (Staying above pettyness) and coming at this in a methodical, logical, strong and systematic way...success can be made.
Don't give away your tactics on line...the PB is reading and the will try and crush any attempts for us to succeed.
ReplyDeleteWe need to stop talking and start doing.How do we get started?
ReplyDeletebut talking is so much easier......
ReplyDeletetalking is only a start.
ReplyDeleteWho's afraid of the big bad wolf?
ReplyDeleteWe frum Jews should only be afraid of Hashem.
Living in such fear so that you sit back and hide allowing our children to become the victims of a failing chinuch system is really not living at all.
Why am I the only one who is willing to identify myself?
What on earth are you all so afraid of?
You know what you should be afraid of? you should be afraid of a future generation growing up without a proper education.
What is life about if there are no principles worth standing up for? Aren't your children worth fighting for?
What will you tell Hakodesh Baruch Hu if He asks you after 120 years why you did not do everything in your power to save your kids' precious neshomas? Will you tell Hashem that you were afraid that if you stood up for Torah and Chabad then someone would strike you off their invitation list for a simcha? Will you tell them you were afraid that Rabbi Groner would yell at you?
I feel like the first refusnik.
Believe me, the PTB are paper tigers.
I suspect that parents of children in the school have no legally-enforceable rights other than receiving an education for their children in return for school fees. I don't know who owns the school or the school buildings, but it's not the YBR Parents' Association. Caulfield Shul was a special case: the Shul was owned by an association, which is a legal entity like a company. Associations have legal responsibilities including the duty to keep lists of members and so forth, and the Shul's representative said that (some) people who were renting seats were actually becoming members of the Shul. In the case of YBR, why would you think that you have joined an association or other body which owns the school? And if you haven't joined a body like this, why would you think you have legally-enforceable rights?
ReplyDeleteMy personal opinion is that *even if* people have legally-enforceable rights regarding YBR it's not the sort of thing that's worth fighting over. If you're excessively unhappy with the environment then take your kids out of the school, send them to a public school, and use the money you save to pay a melamed.
Public school for most Chabad Chassidishe people is not an option even with a part time melamed.
ReplyDeleteJoe is right, the school cannot be changed from within, it's a waste of time even trying. Legally, they have it all sown up.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who cares for their kids will need to send them to Adass, (if that's an option) or open a new school and a chasidisher shteibel.
What about Yesodei HaTorah??
ReplyDeleteWhat about the psuedonyms you are using Anonymous?
ReplyDeleteI have a face, a name, an address, while the rest of you are phantoms in the night.
You can write judgments about my personality while you remain in the shadows. Where is your integrity?
Either write your name or not but don't try and cast aspersions on me while I am identifying myself when you refuse to. Pretty unfair and nasty of you, isn't it?
I have an idea for thoSe who are serious aBout their fAmily's and children's future.
ReplyDeleteThat is that we form a 'club' or group which proudly states that its member accept the following:
1) No TV at home.
2) No videos allowed in the home except [for those who insist -] clips of the rebbe.
3) Not we nor our children go to movies, football matches and similar mixed and pritzus venues.
4) We will never make a mixed barmitzva/wedding/function.
5) Wife and daughters will dress tsenius [standards as per chassidish women in CH].
6) I/We will spend 5-10 minutes per day studying talking Torah or chassidus with each child.
The following additional - possibly optional:
7) We will not attend any mixed private or communal functions.
8) (For men and boys) We will davven with minyan morning and evening - 7 days a week [unless we have a good reason eg health, parnossa etc].
This is a call to all of US. Let's start by showing we truly mean it - not just kvetching for the sake of kveching. And I am sure that if this takes off, it will be joined by dozens more who are also sick and tired of what we have become.
There is NOTHING on the list that a genuine chassidish male or female can disagree with - so why not do it?
Talk to your spouse and kids and undertake it and tell your friends to do so too.
Who knows we could be starting a revolution which will show that Chabad in Mmelb will - Chadeish Yomeinu keKedem!!!
THE REBBE WILL THANK YOU FOR THIs AND HIS bLESSINGS WILL COME UPON YOU YOUR CHILDEN aND HOUSEHOLD.
I hope Rabbi Groner will promote this excellent Idea. I believe in this zechus we here in Melbourne will bring Moshiach now!
ReplyDeleteLet's organize a public rally with real emesdike chassidim who can inspire us.We will be the light to all yidden.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe last 3 should be removed.
ReplyDeleteYour Gashmius TV etc (which is pretty close to pornography these days)is so important to you that you make fun of anyone who does not want their children controlled by this rubbish!
AE. You title this topic "enough is enough" BUT NO PERSON FROM AUTHORITY HAVE STOOD UP TO TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY. DOESN'T THIS SHOW SOMETHING!
ReplyDeleteStop your whinging orleave Australia.All the misnagids who graduated from YCBR do not complain.
ReplyDeleteanonymous It's easy to stop whinging but what is the alternative? To have Grandchildren Goyim??
ReplyDeleteRegarding the issue of financial accountability:
ReplyDeleteIt is a halachic requirement that public organizations that receive donations account to those who contribute money. We learn it from Parashat Pekudei where Moshe Rabbinu gave a complete accounting of all money and items donated for the construction of the Mishkan. The opposite is true for private financial affairs. Private individuals have the Halachic right to privacy. Organizations don't have such a right. An organization that keeps finances secret is acting contrary to Halacha.
The Rebbe was asked by many shluchim what to do when a donor wants to see the books. The answer was always the same - If a Baal Bait gives you money, you have to show him the books.
In the Jem video that was shown on Motzei Shabbos Ballak, where a person asked the rebbe how to bring back his child that is going away from Yiddishkeit, the Rebbe replied: By being a living example, that is the tested and most peaceful way.
ReplyDeleteIt is needless to add anything more to what the Rebbe said.
We can all ask ourselves, are we a Chassidisher and Yiddisher example in all ways for our kids, or our message to them is:Do as i say, NOT DO AS I DO.
On the question of how to teach Hebrew pronounciation:
ReplyDeleteThe Sefardic pronounciation of words (in "milRA" - emphasis on the end of the word rather than the beginning of the word) is the ONLY correct way. In rare exceptions, when the emphasis is on the beginning of the word (Ashkenazik), the Siddur has a little tag on the word to show that it is an exception to the rule. Any one who reads the toRAH (not the TOirah) in the Ashkenazik pronounciation is doing it wrong - plain and simple.
In Parashat Bereshit we have the word NACHASH meaning snake. But, the meaning is snake only if you say naCHASH. If you say NAchash the meaning is changed to a form of witchcraft practiced by Bilam in parashat Balak. Certainly not the same thing.
It's about time that we take seriously the Rebbe's advice that we have to live Moshiachdik. When Moshiach comes everyone will speak correct Hebrew - in the Sefardik pronounciation - exactly as we read the toRAH today.
Zvi,are you saying the timani incorrect.One Chabad rabbi in Perth told me ,it does not matter if you daven in Ivtit or Ivris,Hashem still listens. There is no right or wrong as the most important ting is that you daven with honour and sincerity.
ReplyDeleteIn Perth ,the children whether from Chassidishe ,Misnagid or Mizrachi backgrounds all get together on Shabbos afternooon at Bnei. What they have in common is achdus, you can all keep your politics.
Children need to want to learn and not be forced that they need to do Limudei Kodesh all day.It is quality of learning not quantity.Our boys and girls will give the Melb and Sydney a pleasant surprise and an awakening on how much we actually learn in the outback.
Fed up- you will not have goyishe grandchildren if you look at alternatives. I went to Melb High,my children do not go to a relgious jewish day school and we are all shomer shabbos.It starts and is nutured in the home.As parents we cannot guarantee the results as it is not totally in our hands as we also need guidance from Hashem.
ReplyDeleteWell I am told that before there were Jewish Day Schools established in Melbourne the failure rate was nearly 90%, but once Frum Schools were established the rate of children leaving Yiddishkeit became less than 10%! I do not need to convince you that the Billions of Dollars spent on Jewish Education in Melbourne was a worthy investment. The statistics are there for all to see!
ReplyDeleteDefinietly some things need to improve at some schools, but non Jewish Schools where our children grow up with goyim and sometimes marry them is not an option!
Of course things are better Mir Yam since before we had any Jewish day schools at all, but now the rate of children going frie has become epidemic. Look at the present.
ReplyDeleteZvi, we are Chabad chassisidm and we do thing sthe way the rebbe did. The rebbe did NOT davven or learn Torah in Ivrit havara - but in the havara of his ancestors. That is what we want as well. When Moshiach comes we will also follow the ruling of the rebbe. meanwhile we do not wish our kids to think that the jabber of israelis is how to davven to Hashem. Ivrit is a mishmash of Ashkenazic and Sfrdic havarot.
ReplyDeleteEg Whne it comes to Tav and Sav - they have them both as Tav, kametz and Pasech are both Pasech etc - which means that the problems of the Sfradi havara are there. OTOH our ashkenazic havara has a problem in differentiating in alef and ayin, chaf and ches, etc. Ivrit has ALL the problems - it is not a 'cleanl language. If the zionists would have wanted a proper 'moshiach-times' havara style they would have taken the teimani version.
But meanwhile let's wean our schools and kids of Ivrit Yom haatzmaut girls singing at the 'holocaust' shows and even at rabbi Groner's birthday parties!
(anyone know of any other Chabad school where the girls - even younger ones - are sent to sing before men??) I doubt it .
When the launch of the new Gurewitz pre School took place at Quat Quatta a class of BR girls sang to Rabbi Groner and the guests. The architect piped up -that he was told at Adass that Girls cannot sing when men are around!
ReplyDeleteThe problem is not only that BR is a modern orthodox school, but how our role models can sit and enjoy the girls singing.
A response on the issue of Sefardic pronounciation:
ReplyDeleteMy comment was only on the issue of Mileil or Milra - TOrah or toRAH, not on the issue of taf or saf. In this regard, everyone, including the Rebbe, the Yemmenites, Ashkenazim, and Sfaradim alike all know and should follow the same rules. While reading the toRAH, if a word should be said in milra, then saying it in mileil is a mistake. The same is also true while davening. If you are not sure how to say it, find the word in the Torah or Tanach and see where the Taam is. NAchash and naCHASH are not the same thing.
To Malka! Adass does not impress me. They are living in the Eighteenth century!
ReplyDeleteEver look at the stationery and letter heads of most normal organizations? They all list the names of all the board members and the committee members, the Rabbis, and honorary people, etc., with a short description of their role in the organization or a school.
ReplyDeleteThe PTB of YCBR is clouded in mysterious secrecy. They are not at all forthcoming about who has their hands on the purse strings or their fingers in the pie. There are no clear indications of who is responsible for which tasks or whic educational issues.
Also,organizations that are conscious of being seen as reputable and above board notify their members of all the financial issues. It is a fact that each member of Mizrachi receives a full financial report each year.
By the way, a woman I know is upset about her son. She told me yesterday that her preteen boy, who is a student at YC, is now saying he does not want to be a Lubavitcher. He does not think it is cool to be Lubavitch and his mother told me that her boy is turned off by their snobbery and materialism. She is afraid this is the beginning of his rebellion against Yiddishkeit and feels there is no one in the school to talk to that cares and will help her. She is trying her best to make a Chassidishe home, but feels she is fighting a losing battle becuase her efforts at home get undone by the school.
Debbie said...
ReplyDeleteAdass does not impress me. They are living in the Eighteenth century!
>>>
They sure are. No TV, no movies, no videos, no mini skirts, no punk hair and music, no drugs, no kids going off-derech...
Let us pray to Hashem that we too can return to live like 18th century Jews!
Zvi said...
ReplyDeleteA response on the issue of Sefardic pronounciation:
My comment was only on the issue of Mileil or Milra - TOrah or toRAH, not on the issue of taf or saf
>>
Zvi darling.
THAT should be our biggest problem!!!
Here we are discussing kids that will not davven AT ALL!!!
Zvi: My comment was only on the issue of Mileil or Milra - TOrah or toRAH, not on the issue of taf or saf. In this regard, everyone, including the Rebbe, the Yemmenites, Ashkenazim, and Sfaradim alike all know and should follow the same rules. While reading the toRAH, if a word should be said in milra, then saying it in mileil is a mistake. The same is also true while davening.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with you in principle, the plain and undeniable fact is that the Rebbe did not pay attention to mil'el and mil'ra, or to sh'va na/ch, in davenning, and that this is well-documented Chabad practise. It is true that the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch explicitly says that one must do so, but the Rebbe knew the SA, and so did all the generations of eltere chasidim, and yet they did otherwise. I can't explain it, but it is so.
Mr G. was shepping Nachas at the Tuesday evening protest, waching his girls in orange marching, singing and dancing.
ReplyDeleteIt's a pity Rabbi Groner didn't hear them sing. At his birthday they were so good!
ReplyDeleteThis blog conversation is descending from one that was intially intelligent to one that is getting more and more silly and petty.
ReplyDeleteI am not excluding myself in this observation.
Can we get back to substance?
Anyone have anything insightful, interesting, or ispiring to talk about?
Shoshana you are of course correct.
ReplyDeleteBut what is there to talk about? Someone made certain suggestions here on how to improve our own yiddishkeit in our homes and families, did A SINGLE ONE OF US HERE give a damn?
The truth is that we are too comfortable and lazy to seriously consider tossing out the TV and video or to send our husbands to shul twice daily EVERY DAY, and to really learn Torah daily (in addition to Chitas - which has unfortunately become a sort of a membling session for most)
etcetera etcetera
Shoshana you are shooting the nmessenger! It is not this blog that is silly and petty. Rather the people we discuss are silly and petty!
ReplyDeleteEg.
Protest activists
Yechiniks
Our leadership
Our Shools
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ReplyDeletemalka, Perhaps you are right, but I really would like to see some positve action to change things. Any suggestions?
ReplyDeleteThe first suggestion is that people should acknowledge that there is a problem.
ReplyDeleteChildren are still getting drugs at school.
I've rear a big portion of this conversation, though didn't have time for all of it.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering: in such a big community melbourne is, may be it's a time for 2 different schools: one that will be a community school to mekarev kids from non religous families to Yidish keit and another one for eigene Anash kids with Limudei Koidesh only and to try to separate them from the bed influence of frei kids.
As I understand at the moment schools (at least BR) are community schools. What is PTB problem to organise another school gor Anash kids?
I believe the PTB sees new schools as competiton for funds, jobs, positions of control, and prestige, and that is why they have in the past done everything in their power to make sure new schools do not open.
ReplyDeleteA few months ago they intimidated a group of staunch Chabadniks, who had full plans for a new Chassidishe school, with the usual threats and intimidation tactics, causing one of them (who was originally from the US) to give up and leave the country because he saw nothing would work out.
Some people are control freaks and they have to learn that they cannot be in charge of everything.
I believe new Chassidshe schools are the only viable answer.
Don't PTBs themselve have kids in school? Or they immune to all the problems?
ReplyDeleteWhy THEY themselve don't open the school, NOT as acompetition, but as another branch?
Let the existing ones to earn prestige in the frei velt, and let eigene children to learn in "not prestige" limudei Koidesh only branch?
PTB's kids are in some cases worse off than the others, but the jobs and the nepotism may be more important to them than the kids' Yiddishkeit, so they keep things the way they are.
ReplyDeleteAnybody notice the Australian Flag
ReplyDelete(The Blue Ensign) flying on the new
functional flagpole outside the Smorgon Wing? That is the sign of the times. The PTB want Australian Government funding for Yeshivah Beth Rivkah Colleges, so they have to fly the flag!
Another sign of the times is that the State Of Victoria, through its Victorian Institute Of Teaching and Registered School Board, require all teachers, including religious studies teachers (limudei kodesh) and Heads of School, to possess an approved four year tertiary (university) qualification in education. If the schools find it difficult to recruit religious teachers with these qualifications, then lesser qualified staff who may be granted Permission To Teach, may be hired. Those granted Permission To Teach have to work under the general supervision of a university qualified teacher. As I understand it, permission to teach for any one person is limited to five years, pending their completion of an approved university course in education. see http://www.vit.vic.edu.au/
This is backed by the Australian Government.
According to the post of other anonymous, what people who wanted to organise new school and were threatened etc.
ReplyDeleteWhat were they relying on?
Seems to be that such school to exist either would cost a fortune to parents or there need to be very big sponsors (do you have any?) to make it affordable.
Y/BR does give substantial discounts and they are vital!
I do want my kids to learn Limudei Koidesh only, but I should be able to pay for it.
Is there a way out?
Some constructive thoughts (preferably based on something, like someone else's experience etc.)?
It is not legally feasible in Australia to run a religious studies (limudei kodesh) only school, unless it is for children past the legal school leaving age.
ReplyDeleteIt is compulsory for all children between 5 and 15 or 16 years of age
to follow a State Government dictated secular studies curriculum.
Inspectors are sent to all schools to make sure that these secular studies take place.
For the requirements for a registered school in the State of Victoria, Australia see http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/rsb/RegistSchools/index.htm.
Hmmm...
ReplyDeleteIf so, what are all the efforts geared to?
As I understand Shoshana's one of the main tainos that Yeshivah didn't give her discount as big as they promissed. So, WHO is going to subsidise a new school?
Besides if it is illegal , it will be closed after one phone call from someone who doesn't like it!
So, what are we talking about? I'm realy trying to understand what is the purpose of this hot discussion? What is the goal? What are you trying to achieve?
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ReplyDelete