(Click on the letter for a larger view)
This "Call" from Agudath Israel of America will appear as an advert in this week's Jewish News sponsored by Moshe Elkman - Chairman of Australian Friends of Gush Katif & Shomron.
Finally a reasoned plea for our brethren in Israel who are scheduled to be moved from their homes.
The text of the letter reads:
These are terribly trying times for Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel. And it behooves us all, no matter our opinions on the wisdom of this imminent Israeli withdrawal from parts of our Holy Land, to pause and share in the pain and anguish of our Jewish brethren in Gaza.
Those residents are, overwhelmingly, idealistic, dedicated Jews. They are being forced by circumstances entirely beyond their control to give up their homes, their yeshivos, their shuls and their cemeteries, to be relocated abruptly to new surroundings. Whether or not the decision necessitating that relocation is politically or militarily correct, its effects are, unarguably, a deep personal tragedy for many thousands.
And so, during these days of Jewish mourning over the destruction of the Botei Mikdosh, it is only proper that we include in our hearts and in our tefillos, all those precious Jewish souls who are scheduled to be uprooted from the land to which they have been attached for many years. May Hakodosh Boruch Hu see fit to return his shechina to Tziyon ve'yolichenu komemius le'artzeinu.
Finally a statement that makes sence!
ReplyDeleteThese guys sound like they are level headed!
ReplyDeleteWho are they?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteSorry if I missed something but in america we saw on shmais and now on col that the rabbis in australia made a letter announcing the disengagement as suicidal surrender.
ReplyDeleteWhat does moshe elkman have to apologize? Are these letters forged?
no, the letter is not forged however, the Rabbis were shown an orignial in Hebrew and told it was a petition going to Sharon. Then Elkman & Oliver placed a version that was translated into Enlgish, and that changed its meaning, into the AJN. The result is that the Rabbis were shocked and appalled that 1) it was in English and it's meaning was different to the original one they signed and 2) it was in the AJN. The Rabbis would not have signed it if they had known that it was going to be made public and, also they would not have signed it because the English translation says things they do not agree with and things that go against the Rebbe. The ad is not written clearly and its wording could be taken to imply support of taking up arms against the IDF and, that is something the Rebbe never would approve of.
ReplyDeleteThis letter from Agudas Yisrael sounds like there are still Rabbis who have their feet on the ground!
ReplyDeleteI always thought Chabad are against Agudas Yisrael!
ReplyDeleteZalman why would Chabad be against another frum organisation? I don't know of anything that Agudas Yisroel does that would make us "against" them.
ReplyDeleteDegel Hatorah is separate, and sometimes at odds, with Aguda. Zalman must have confused Chabad with Degel.
ReplyDeleteAgudah is made up of two parts one is Degel!
ReplyDeleteHmmm Elkmans starting to come round much better moishe finaaly a reasoned appropriate and yes maybe even effective advert.
ReplyDeleteoh and by the way check out the guy walking around Yeshivah with sholom mendel Kluwgant today (wednesday) Thats your sons new principle wish him well
Does anyone know the new principal's name?
ReplyDeleteThat letter / psak in the AJN was truly pathetic.
ReplyDeleteMoshe Kahn? Boruch Shapiro? Mendel Lipskier? Sure, they are nice guys but they are not community rabbonim.
It looked like someone went around Yeshivah shul one evening asking anyone around to sign their name.
This is not a psak Din, which is supposed to be signed by actual rabbonim.
I heard that some of the rabbis who signed the psak are taking the organizers to a din torah, for not being honest about what they were signing and for cutting and pasting some of the signitures from a different document.
ReplyDeleteanyone else hear that???
no,
ReplyDeleteBut i heard a rumour that after it went to print, they got some additional signatures, which will be printed in next weeks Jewish News.
Its very hush hush at the moment, but i hear some of the new signatures include: the baal korah from F.R.E.E., the baal koreh from Emmy Monash, two out of three of the yeshivah school shluchim, and one Rocky Konasonstopolous, who I believe is the Yeshivah caretaker.
LOL!
ReplyDeleteI agree, its pathetic.
I would like to see a more normally drafted and more professionally organized resolution against the disengagement.
Perhaps then some of the more heavyweight, more respected rabbis would actually sign.... and then people might actually take it seriously.
Rabbis like:
R' F. Levin,
R' Beck,
R' M. Gutnick,
R' B. Wurzburger,
R' Y. Barber,
etc.
etc.
Rabbi Oliver is greater than all of them.
ReplyDeleteHe has mesiras nefes for the rebbes inyonim
Rabbi Rocky Konasonstopolous is a man of principals, he would not sign a political psak!
ReplyDeletechosid, Rabbi Oliver has mesiras nefesh? What would you call deceiving Rabbis-mesira nefesh? Pathetic!
ReplyDelete769, how come you never made it to 770?
ReplyDeleteEvery salesman knows you must "dress up" your product in order to make a sale!
ReplyDeleteIf they told the Rabbis it will go in the AJN then they would never have been sold on the idea and may not have signed.
But were they really fooled? NO. They just needed to be pushed along. For example, anything been planned for this Tisha B'Av? This is the last chance before D-DAY?
If not for signing this petition, what has anyone done for our brave settlers who are being threatened by an undemocratic dictator? ABSOLUTE NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!.
Not even a call to say TEHILLIM in the last few days - is this pathetic enough for you? Why should Moshiach bother coming if we and our Rabbis are fast asleep?
sweety-pie, give me a break. You are on another planet if you think this was just a 'dress up' job. Stop playing with the FACTS.
ReplyDeleteFACT: the Rabbis were not shown the same petition that was printed in the AJN. The one they thought they were signing was not the one that got printed. Oliver & Elkman did not tell them the truth.
FACT: The Rabbis were not informed upon signing that this was going to the AJN. They were told it was going to Sharon. Elkman & Oliver did not tell them the truth
FACT: In light of the above two facts, if the Rabbis had been informed of the FACTS they would not have participated.
This is not called 'dress-up' rather this is called plain, simple DECEIT!!!
If you cannot tell the difference then you are ethically challenged.
As for the Rabbis not calling for tehilim-perhaps they should have taken all this under their control from the beginning and they did not, so this resulted in a power vacuum, and allowed these overly zealot activists to hijack the entire issue. I hope the Rabbis have learned their lesson that we pay heavily for their lack of leadership on important issues of the day.
In the meantime the underhanded tactics of Oliver & Elkman HAVE HURT THE SETTLERS' CAUSE since now by association the entire anti-disengagment camp of Melbourne has been discredited.
So in the end after all their noise and frenetic activity, what have Elkman & Oliver actually accomplished that was positive and helpful to their cause? Absolutely nothing!
I think the rabbis simply rejected the notion of being "pushed along". But then again PINCHOS in the bible "out-Staged" Moshe and Aaron. They gave in and told him to go for it!
ReplyDeleteMaybe the "Rabbis" should conceede that Mr Elkman is our Pinchos, he is Melbourne's only real activist. He fly to Canberra yesterday at his own expense to present petitions to the Israeli Ambassador. Why no Rabbis went along to accompany him?
everyone knows that a real, authentic GEFILTE FISH must have a slice of carrot on top. So Mr Gefilte Fish, are you wearing an orange yarmulke?
ReplyDeleteIDF should stand for Israeli Defense Force. Sadly IDF now stands for "ISRAELI DISENGAGEMENT FORCE"!
ReplyDeleteAll I am saying is that someone should dress in orange, the color of caution and warning - they should be screaming from the rooftops - STOP THIS MADNESS !!!
P.S. The CoatMan still has 2000 orange scaves to sell, now going at discount price!
769,
ReplyDeleteyoure right. It looks as though Rocky didn't sign in the end.
I think he was probably worried about the political fallout. Also, I heard he backed out when he found out that none of the heavyweights were signing.
As long as we have people of principal like Rabbi Rocky we are OK! Hashem does not let a real Rabbi be fooled. He has Siyata Dishmaya.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Rabbis making a p'ska (regardless of wether it is going to the AJN or not)... Rabbi Shapira -former chief Rabbi of Israel made the following statement in a p'sak that he gave re: disengagement (taken from Arutz7 news)
ReplyDelete"Only great sages of the generation whose decisions are widely accepted in Israel are allowed to adjudicate difficult questions in all parts of the Torah, and are allowed to render such decisions that affect all of Israel. All those who have not reached this level should abstain from rendering decisions on these issues. If he does render decisions on this matter, the Rambam has already called him (Laws of Talmud Torah, chapter 5:4), "An evil person, a fool, and haughty," and it is furthermore said about him, "Many corpses she has made to fall, etc." and it says about him "and many are its dead." These are the small students which have not studied Torah sufficiently; and they wish to aggrandize themselves before the ignoramuses and the people of their city; and they leap and sit at the head to instruct Israel; and it is they who increase conflict; and they are the destroyers of the world who put out the light of Torah and who ruin the vineyard of the G-d of Legions. It is about them that Solomon has said in his wisdom, "Small foxes have taken hold of us, small foxes destroying the vineyards." "
Rabbi Shapira is a has been. He and Rabbi Eliyahu are the only 2 former chief Rabbis who hold such right wing views. They are not taken seriously in Israel nor are they the Poskim of Chabad etc. It is only a marriage of convinience.
ReplyDeleteNot one of the leading Poskim including Rabbi Lau who is closer to chabad than Shapira agree with this political psak!
Mark Leibler says Rabbi Groner only signed the Psak as he is sick. He means SENILE! This is real chutzpah.
ReplyDeleteAnd all chabad Rabbis blindly followed Groner!
ReplyDeletey.y. Mark Leibler did NOT say Rabbi Groenr is senile,he said he was sick. Do not make things up about what he meant or not, he did not even imply senility.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Groner is sick and it is not wrong to assume that this could have clouded his judgment. Liebler is actually giving Rabbi Groner a real excuse for making a foolish error.
We all have to ask what excuse the rest of them had. They are such SHEEP!
YY - Liebler said or implied nothing about Rabbi Groner other than he was sick. The quote from the Jewish News is that Rabbi Groner "would not have signed the petition had he been in good health".
ReplyDeleteWhat Liebler implied was that R Groner is the only one with any intelligence. It says he acce[ted that "many of Rabbi Groners followers simply signed it because they saw his name". He is saying that they could not come to any decision themselves. I think that if the other rabbis had any backbone they wpould take him to task for that. But since they are all trying to distance themselves from what they signed it won't happen.
Also notice that Elkman would not make any comment on the accusation that the wording was changed between the hebrew petition that was signed and the english one that was published.
If Leibler said that Groner would not have signed the Psak if he had been in good health, he could not mean that the reason he signed the psak as he has a sore leg etc. He must have meant that due to his lack of health he signed something which if he would be healthy he wouldn't. This must mean his mental stat.
ReplyDeleteMaybe SENILE is extreme but I understand that Leibler questions his mental health. What would a physical health problem got to do with his judgement?
Groner's judgement was NOT clouded by sickness - please note - Rabbi I.D. Groner willingly attended the Orange draped Rally on 19th July in a wheelchair!
ReplyDeleteAlso at the rally, Shmuel Gurevicz sat at head table for Tehillim recital WITH AN ORANGE RIBBON ON HIS SLEEVE !!!
Like Rabbi Groner says many times in Yiddish "you can't dance at both Chassenahs" ie. you cant please both the "for and against" people. Dont worry they will still keep donating money whether or not you sign a petition!
Better that these 2 were honest and said clearly - "we are against giving land to terrorists", people should speak out, orange or no orange!
Clearly there have been underhanded dealings, misreprentations and deceit in the manner the "psak" was circulated for signatures etc.People who have been inactive about anything and everything till now, have decided to crawl out from where ever they have been and are causing so much ill-feeling that whatever good Chabad has done here, is being undone.That 'translation' of the psak was atrocious in any case.Those who saw the original psak in hebrew would know that. The one exception is Moshe Elkman, I think he means it with all his heart. It's a pity that he is being ill advised on how to go about such a vital matter. It should promote achdus in Melbourne, rather that disunity and harsh criticism.Oirois detohu in keilim detikun!!! Chevrah! wake up. We need to ignore those who are harming the image of Chabad -Lubavitch.We all suffer in the end.
ReplyDeleteGurevicz claims that he did not know what he signed was a Psak, but this Psak was announved a week earlier on the web plus in Jewish News. They put their foot into it then blame poor Moishe. It is not fair to leave him holding the baby. Mr G. and his sons were very active in pushing Elkman. After making fools of themselves they 'pass the buck'.
ReplyDeleteGroner knew what he is signing and who he is signing for. I am a personal witness. DON'T BLAME OTHERS!!
ReplyDeleteIF RABBI GRONER IS SICK AND DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE SIGNS, AND THEN ALL OTHER CHABAD RABBIS FOLLOW HIM WHAT DOES OUR LEADERSHIP LOOK LIKE???????????
Jenny is correct as we have seen this sort of behaviour before.
ReplyDeleteThe Rabbis were not DECEIVED, they DECEIVED! If they trusted Oliver they knew exactly what they were getting. Moishe cannot even read Hebrew, and our Rabbis bemand in the media they want an apology from Elkman. Jews blood is not only being spilt in Israel, our Rabbis are spilling Elkmans blood!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletead mosai, you are going way over the top. The rabbis are not spilling Elkman's blood--get a grip on yourself, you sound hysterical.
ReplyDeleteSo far Elkman and Oliver have failed to take any responsibility in this mess. Elkman was questioned by the AJN and would not say anything. His actions and his presetn silence on the matter show a lack of character.
I can tell y'all with some authority, that many of those chabad rabbis have 'constituents' that are not observant. And many of them are disgusted with their Rabbis for the public announcement in the AJN. I have heard this firsthand, and a certian chabad house Rabbi was verbally abused last friday as he went on his 'tefillin mivtza'.
ReplyDeleteHonestly most of the lightweight Chabad rabbis who signed did so because they were simply too excited that they were being asked to sign a psak and did'nt beven bother reading it carefully or thinking through the ramifications.
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way, rabbi Groner might be physically sick but after talking to him the other night I see that he is as on the ball as ever. Halevay that when I'm 80 I should have my finger on every little detail of whats going on in the community as he does. Don't forget he is in a lot of pain and we wish him a refuah shelaima.
Amen to that anonymous !
ReplyDeleteI am sure Rabbi Groner is on the ball, but Leibler makes him look senile, and all the lightweights as sheep.
ReplyDeleteI see Mulik GurGurewicz wrote a letter to the Jewish news doing serious damage control.
ReplyDelete"I would like to state that I never signed a halachic ruling on this matter. I am not a halachic authority. Unfortunately my signature was superimposed onto this advertisement."
I think most of the rabbis that got duped into signing have spent the better part of the week doing serious damage control!
ReplyDeleteAfter a small lull in activity, I'm glad to see this blogsite has burst back into life!
ReplyDeleteI can now return to my favourite pastime of turning on my computer and reading what all the nutters and daya zogers of our community have to say.
Heck, its almost addictive
Some sephardic rabbi named Y. Cohen is listed as the only non chabad rabbi who signed the Jewish News psak. Then on the very next page, we see him as one of the three dissidents who support the disengagement.
ReplyDeleteIs it just me or is there something very messed up here???????
By reading the Jewish News this week, we clearly see the damage this petition has done to Chabad's reputation. As a Lubavitcher, I cringe at the thought of how foolish this has made us look and how we successfully managed to turn off and alienate so many people, when our job is to do exactly the opposite.
ReplyDeleteI think we should all read the Jewish News editorial which sums it all up pretty accurately. It should be a wake up call for us all.
Thank G-d for Rabbis F. Levin, M. Gutnick, Y. Barber and M. Liberow who saved face by not signing and at leaving us at least some dignity.
I think the Junior wannabes ( who are scrambling to cover their blunder) only damaged their own chances of succeeding as Chabad rabbis and being taken seriously by the community.
Lame excuses such as "time constraints" which was given by one wannabe, is pathetic. you have much to learn if you want to reach the status of the abovementioned rabbis. They are respected as men of principles, not wishy washy wannabes.
Were is Shoshanna Silcove? She has not written any comments for a while? Or has she another name now, like Anonymous?
ReplyDeleteI am lurking. Busy doing my own writing for publication too, G-d willing.
ReplyDeleteTalk about wishy washy - Mr G writes letter to editor AJN ; First he says he signed a petition, secondly he did NOT sign the Psak Din, thirdly he IS opposed to disengagement!
ReplyDeleteWhere does he stand? Like a drunk,
all over the place! Where does he sit? On the fence!
In the interview on Page 3, Mr.G. again contradicts himself. On the one hand "I was deceived" and intends to seek an apology. On the other hand "what use is that, does Sharon read the AJN anyway?
Mr.G. as principal of Beth Rivka, you have a few hundred girls under you. They want to see a real leader with guts like the Rebbe, who screamed loud and clear when the issue of "Land for Peace" was on the agenda!!!!!!!!!
Sent to some Rabbis
ReplyDeleteElkman and Oliver have not seemed to show any remorse or regret for their actions. The AJN asked Elkman questions and he was silent. This silence condemns them.
To me this shows they lack basic ethics and morals.I did not grow up frum but my parents raised me with good values. The basis of this value system was honestly and integrity.
The Rabbis and shluchim signed this petition because they feel deep in their hearts with an emes that a great wrong is being done in Eretz Kodesh. They signed it in the hopes that this would help to ameliorate the horrible situation.
Elkman & Oliver took the good faith and good will of the Rabbis and shluchim and spit in their faces. They used the very people that would support their cause.
A psak is holy and has the power to avert bad decrees ON HIGH (G-d help us). Elkman and Oliver perverted the very concept of a psak and thereby mocked and showed complete disregard for the Torah. Such a perverse action was done in the name of holiness, in the name of the Rebbe, in the name of Hashem, and because it was done deceitfully it could, G-d forbid, give power to the satan (May Hashem turn all decrees to the revealed good). I do not have words to describe how this disgusts me.
Elkman and Oliver have shown disrespect for an entire community and have lessened the esteem of many good Rabbis and shluchim in the eyes of the world.
So far, neither of them have seemed to show any appreciation for the seriousness of their wrong doing. They are blinded by their passion for the cause and their own egos which allows them to believe it is correct to trample on their fellow Jews and the Torah in order to save Klal Yisroel. They believe the ends justifies the means.
If the Rabbis and shluchim allow them to get away with this they are giving several wrong messages:
1) they are weak willed and cannot stand for principles
2) Elkman and Oliver will be left as examples of the wrong ethical conduct that one can engage in and get away with.
3) the seriousness of a psak din will not be upheld-another bad example for the community
As a person who spent my early years in political activism, I predicted Elkman’s and Oliver’s path as soon as this group was formed, I knew and could see they were headed towards disaster. Now I can see that the Rabbis have done too little too late after the fact and I can foresee more disasterous consequences occurring if you do not all get your act together now.
Shoshanna Silcove
Shoshanna, you became too emotional and have missed the point. Why did Elkman and Oliver need to get involved in the first place?
ReplyDeleteTHE RABBIS SHOULD HAVE INSTIGATED A PSAK BY THEMSELVES
Its the lack of leadership which is getting up people's noses here!
Would the Rabbis have ever been united to come up with a wording themselves?
pp-you missed the point, the Rabbis lack of leadership does not excuse Elkman & Oliver from their behaviour.
ReplyDeleteAlso, these people who signed the petition are not a unified group of Rabbonim. They are just people who live here with smicha. Some are shluchim, some are not even Rabbis, some are Chabad House guys. What you are talkng about is something that should have been written up by the real Rabbonim of our town like Rabbi Y. D. Groner, not people who just happen to have smicha.
The lack of leadership from the top, as I said before on this blog, left a power vacuum, and this allowed incapable people to jump in and take control and this should never have happened. Blame the Rabbonim who are really Rabbonim for this, (and there are only a few of these at the very top)not the plain regular Rabbis, shluchim, and those who happen to have smicha and jobs in mosdos and live here.
Notice Rabbis Gutnick and Levin and Barber are not just Rabbis but they each of them is also a Rav and they did not sign?
The same thing applies to the "orange" Solidarity Rally. Everyone said they were concerned about Gush Katif, but not really concerned enough to organise a rally, a shiur, a prayer vigil, nothing!
ReplyDeleteNow we are only days and hours from the planned expulsion! Again, where is the leadership? Everyone too lazy to type out just 4 words on a bit of paper - PLEASE PRAY FOR ISRAEL. Again the only thing on the shul noticeboards is the Press Release from Aust.Friends of Gush Katif - so again Moshe Elkman is the only person who cares about Jews in Israel!
pp-you are so off. If you want to support Moshe Elkman after he has shown himself to be dishonest and underhanded then I would say you are ethically challenged! The ends do not justify the means and to think they do is not a Torah derech.
ReplyDeleteIn a few hours Israel may, G-d forbid, drown in civil war and anarchy, while being attacked from inside and outside by Arabs. However, our rabbis are too busy putting their signatures under the microscope to see which one is real and which is a photocopy!
ReplyDeleteHas Mr G ever asked the girls to start the school day with TEHILLIM for Israel?
LADIES PLEASE HELP !!!
ReplyDeletePP is 100% correct. I have given up on these men. Why don't the N'shei Chabad organise Tehillim, a 24 hours roster. Maybe an Australia wide "synchonised" hour of Tehillim?
Where the heck is TZIVOS HASHEM ? Why don't they gather all Melbourne's kids to doven and implore H-shem to have mercy already? Elkman doesn't have a monopoly on new ideas, or does he?
The Litvishe crowd used to have a roster of ladies - every 2 hours a different lady - no talking to avoid Loshen Horah. What about now? Are they all asleep?
Shoshanna, I have admired your comments on this blog for many weeks now, and you seem to be a pretty tough principled responsible person! Now I will take off my gloves and throw down the gauntlet, so to speak!
ReplyDeleteSHOSHANNA SILCOVE, here is the biggest challenge of your life!!!
Are you willing to instigate and organise at least one of my 4 suggestions (mentioned in my previous comment) Israel desperately needs a good sensible activist such as YOU! Time is running out? Are you willing to act?
oj, why would I have the slightest inclination to join a group with an invitation from an anonymous blogger?
ReplyDeleteI am already doing my bit, writing letters to those in power, and other things spiritually.
At this point the ONLY possible thing we can do that will have any effect is to DAVEN for a NESS GADOL. Even Yosel says that at this point there is no way according to ha derech hateva to change the government's plans and only Hashem can help us.
I just knew it! You chickened out! You are afraid of all that critisism, you know the barrage of complaints YOU have against ELKMAN's little group may just come back to haunt you oneday. You can relax, you're not the only chicken, Melbourne is one big Chicken Farm.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, this Blog Administrator is remaining ANONYMOUS too! He/she just wrote a nice new piece of nonsence called "politics and Chabad", ending with the "coming of Moshiach". Instead of ending with a practical call to action!
Dear PP
ReplyDeleteFor Your Information-
The rabbinate DID organize a psak, worded less fanatically than Oliver's mess but still more strongly worded than the Agudah one above . I believe rabbis Kluwgant and Gutnick were organizing it, it was supposed to come out before Tishe beav with almost all the rabbis, both Chabad and non Chabad from both Melbourne and Sydney signing it. However Oliver and the loose cannons came out with their disaster first, and the negative fallout caused many of the non Chabad rabbis to back out. I'm not sure if they are still going ahead, if it does, it will not be as potent as it would have been had the 1st mess not come out.
I think this is a classic example of how by acting like a bunch of renegades, the Friends of Gush katif have probably done more damage for their cause than good.They should have met with proper level headed rabbis first who understand the community and they would have been FAR MORE SUCCESSFUL in making an impact.
Futhermore, Every shul in Melbourne had a sign hanging last week signed by Kluwgant on behalf of the RCA and Gutnick on behalf of the Beth Din calling for Shabbat Achdut and extra Tehillim and Torah Study etc.
Finally, If you would attend a NORMAL shul/s, you would probably find that thats most the Rabbis have been actively talking about the situation, talking in their droshos to their congregants in a WAY THAT THEY CAN BE MEKABEL.
The Rabbis are not idiots. They are also hurting by the situation. But unlike Friends of gush Katif, they have to act with a little seichel.
oj if you don't believe in Moshiach then you are probably not Jewish.
ReplyDeleteOJ--you say I chickened out? You say I am afraid of criticsm? What a joke! You don't even have the guts to identify yourself! Whoever you are--you are a nar. Go away.
ReplyDeleteAgudas Yisrael of America is mainly Litvish Rabbanim. Why are they smarter than Chabad and give out a statement that can be respected. Chabad Rabbis sound like some fanatical cult!
ReplyDeleteHow can Kluwgant cry that he was deceived with the psak, and then say he agreed to have it in the paper due to 'time restraints'!
ReplyDeleteSounds rather shifty to me!
If the Rabbis had another Psak organised, WHY DID THEY SIGN ANYTHING for Oliver/Elkman/Chaim Tzvi?
ReplyDeleteSomething is missing!
Because I heard from some of them that the Elkman job was not even presented as an official psak (that's why those who were teachers, principals and klal workers signed) because it was in the format more as a petition. And the more petitons the better. The Rabbis version was to have been an official psak by all RABBIS in Aust and NZ.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteshoshanna Silcove said...
ReplyDeleteEven Yosel says that at this point there is no way according to ha derech hateva to change the government's plans and only Hashem can help us.
>>
AMAZING!!!!!
EVEN Yossel has decided that this time we have no choice but to get Hashem onside!!
THings must be VEY tough out there!!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteEveryone knew perfectly well that the paper being signed was a psak. If it was a petition it would not have been given only to "Rabbis".
ReplyDeleteIt was clearly advertised that this psak will be in the AJN. These so called "Rabbis" made a fool of themselves calling for civil disobidience so the best damage control is to blame Elkman. How come none of our leaders have had the courtesy to show us the original Psak that they DID sign. Or do they really think we are so gullible!
Ad mosai - they are all to blame:
ReplyDeleteElkman and Oliver for preparing such a divisive and off-putting document in the first place and the rabbis for signing without proper thought and forgetting the klal "chachomim hizharu bedivreichem".
The whole campaign here has been a shambles and the hamon am, who indeed are not gullible, have seen through it.
Real TishB'Av stuff...
Yes!!
ReplyDeleteCould one of the 33 Rabbis please show us what they signed!!!!
Depressed remember it's always darkest before the dawn.
ReplyDeleteIt can't get much darker - so cheer up: Moshiach is definitely on the way!!!
In Brooklyn there is a billboard that MOSHIACH IS ALREADY HERE!!
ReplyDeleteIs Moshiach only in Brooklyn or also in Melbourne?
ReplyDeleteCan anyone get a copy of the original psak?
ReplyDeleteWhat about the AJN?
Then we will make up our minds who is being dishonest a) Oliber-Elkman-CZ Groner or
b) those 33 rabbis, shochtim, teachers, businessmen, partimers etc/
So far we have Rabbis saying that they signed a different document. Elkman says no comment. The conclusion is obvious.
ReplyDeleteSo with what chutzpah are the Elkman/Oliver apologists challenging the integrity of the Rabbis? Why must they continue with their divisive and destructive tactics? Haven't they learnt their lesson yet?
Apparently some don't trust the Rabbis either!
ReplyDeletethe only reason why people freaked out with the psak is because Chabad was behind it. since chabad is a huge force in this city, some people feel threatened when chabad rabbis flex their muscles and unite publicly on a certain cause. These insecure people then feel the need to come down hard and voice their opposition which is readily reported in the anti chabad jewish news etc, thus attempting to dampen the power of chabad rabbis, who control the rabbinate, bethdin, kashruth etc in this city. Had the psak been signed by some non chabad rabbis there would never have been such a negative fallout.
ReplyDeleteMr Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteYou missed 2 points.
The Jewish News was quoting Chabad Rabbis who spoke AGAINST the psak!
Chabad Rabbis are not united at all. One lot agrees with the Psak, another wouldn't sign in the first place, while a third are crying they were cheated.
If that is unity I"ll eat my hat!
If Chabad Rabbis are such controllers that they control the Rabbinate etc. How come these (major) shules do not have Chabad Rabbis?
ReplyDeleteEast Melbourne
Toorak
Caulfield
Adass
Mizrachi
Mercaz Hatorah
Saasson Yehuda Sefardi
Bet Hatalmud
Blake Street
Kew
St Kilda
Heichal Hatorah
Carnegie Minyan
Once we only had a hand full of Lubavitcher Rabbis are we were mekarev many, many to Yiddishkeit. Today with all the Chabad Rabbis running Melbourne the amount of Lubavitcher BT is just about non existent!
ReplyDeleteToo many chiefs, Not enough Indians!
770- I often look around in shule and at various Lubavitch gatherings and there seem to be no new faces. Have we become an insular group? We are always preaching to the converted lately. Something has gone very wrong and I suspect the Moshichistinism has turned many people off to us, besides we are not trying hard enough to mekarev people.I remember the old days when Lubavitchers took pride in showing a good face to the outside world and in how many new people they could bring to the Shabbos table. Not anymore, since now we are into ourselves and too many are too busy seeing who can scream yechi the loudest.
ReplyDeletePerhaps in the old days it was because the Yeshivah Shule was the only centre of Chabad activities. Now the Yeshivah Shule is indeed unfortunately pretty much catering only to the needs of eigeneh members of the Chabad community. However the various Chabad Houses and even main-stream Shules with Chabad Rabbis are still in the forefront of Chabad kiruv activities. Go spend a Shabbos in some of those places and you will see that Chabad is still VERY much in the front lines of kiruv and in the making baalei teshuvah.
ReplyDeleteSHLIACHS DAUGHTER! But where are the BT hiding? Can't find them!
ReplyDeleteI agree with kesser its all the mishichistens fault!
ReplyDeleteOh I almost forgot, the PTB probably had something to do with as well.
Kesser you are so full of...!
Stop pointing fingers at everyone else and turn it around at yourself. So quick to blame everyone and if someone would say maybe it has something to do with the community as a whole you are very quick to brush it away!
finger, of course it has to do with the community as a whole. By they way, WHERE ARE THE NEW BT'S?
ReplyDeleteIf Chabad Houses are mekarveing new BT'S they must be doing it very secretly cause lots of haven't met any in years!
So then kesser why do you blame the mishichisten. So they want moshiach a bit more than you and they have chosen their way of showing it, I don't see them in chabad houses waving flags. You should be out there speaking to people.
ReplyDeleteWhen was the last time you had a fraiy person at a shabbos meal or was it the mishichisten fault that they didn't come or was it their fault that you never invited them?
Don't point FINGERS b/c its not gonna get you anywhere. Just do somthing about it.
finger, the Moshichistin have TURNED AWAY THOUSANDS OPF PEOPLE FROM WANTING TO LEARN CHASSIDIS AND FROM CHABAD.
ReplyDeleteThis past Shabbos i had a frie person at my Shabbos table, what about you finger?
i am always doing positive things but that does not stop me from trying to get the Moshiachistin to see the damage they have done. Why can't they see they are turning people off?
Kesser. Visit a Chabad House or another Shule where there is a Chabad rfabbi for a Shabbos I guarantee you'll see PLENTY of BT's!
ReplyDeleteI invited 3 mishichisten but that acc. to you could be considered mivtzoyim.
ReplyDeleteBut seriously unless you havn't been to israel and america/770 you have nothing to complain about australian mishichisten.
I don't know anyone who is being turned off yidishkiet from them that was really interested in yidishkiet. On the contrary maybe if you try faking to be a mishichist you might actualy sort of want moshiach.
finger, Moshichisten do not really want Moshiach because they only want him if Moshiach is the Rebbe, and if not then they say feh! Who needs a Moshiach if it isn't the Rebbe? They would rather stay in galus then have another Jew other than the Rebbe be Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteOh so you you really are are mishichist, b/c you seem to know better than them what they really want.
ReplyDelete2 things.
1. Yo are not a real lubavitcher b/c every chosid believes their rebbe is moshiach. So there is no question of rejection.
2. And the last thing any real mishichist wants is to stay in golus.
I have therefor come to the conclusion you are some confused outside stirrer with nothing else to do with your time than to start any more unneccesary divisions and hatred.
So I want you to open up a lekuitei sichos if you know what that is and learn something from the rebbe. Then maybe a mishichist can guide you in the right derech.
This nonsence that every chossid believes their Rebbe is Moshiach is a myth invented by the Mishiachistim. In the past 50 years I never heard or saw propoganda that the Rayatz is Moshiach nor have I ever seen any other chosid say, think or advertise that their Rebbe is Moshiach. If you believe that other chassidim are stupid enough to believe they know who moshiach will be then why don't you respect them for that instead of spending tens of millions of dollars on propoganda to market the Rebbe as Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe the Messiah can't come until we all become believers????
Before the Mishiachistim started their campaign the Rebbe taught us for many years to think more about Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteBelieving in Moshiach is as old as the torah and not the Mishiachistim nor Jews for J. or any other group taught us anything positive about moshiach, except that the Mishiachistim think they know what goes on in Heaven!
There are BTs in Melbourne, but unfortunately they can be found by Kon(Mercaz) Bet Hatalmud etc!!
ReplyDeleteWhy are Baal Teshuvas not coming to Chabad??
ReplyDeleteAussie Echo, this should be your next topic!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletethe only reason why people freaked out with the psak is because Chabad was behind it. since chabad is a huge force in this city, some people feel threatened when chabad rabbis flex their muscles and unite publicly on a certain cause.
***************
Chabad rabbis flex their muscles!!
Hah!! What joke!
The weakest and most wishy-washy rabbis in town are our own Chabad ones, who sadly have zero confidence in themselves and are always looking back to see if their gevirim, baalei batim and shul boards agree 100% to what they say.
This Oliver AJN business proves it!
The real scardy cats [like Mottel Gutnik and barber - who are employed by proper shuls] were even afraid to sign the original so called harmless Hebrew non-offensive version!
Why??
Because they were petrified what the shul president may tell them, that's why.
Meanwhile the other 'courageous' group who DID sign - have been pedalling backwards at 100 kms an hour ever since.
Groyser muscles flexes indeed!
----------------------------
Anonymous said...
..attempting to dampen the power of chabad rabbis, who control the rabbinate, bethdin, kashruth etc in this city.
*******************
Chabad control. Halevai,
Mizrachi could throw out Mottel and Barber in one minute (and who knows when their new rabbi Sprung - who is well known as a pretty tough disciplinarian type arrives it won't happen?).
Then what?
They run their own el-cheapo version s of kashrut as previous?
And chabad on the bethdin? Sure, because no a single non-chabad rabbi would agree to sit there - with the reputation it has. From the entire RCV they could convince 1 non-chabadnik to accept a position.
-=--------------
Had the psak been signed by some non chabad rabbis there would never have been such a negative fallout.
***********
non chabad rabbis would never have been so stupid to sign a paper prepared by some simpleminded [though good intentioned] fanatics
Someone bropught up a VERY interesting point.
ReplyDeleteMaybe this should be AE 's new poll. [The original IS after all, getting a bit long in the tooth]
AUSSIE ECHO POLL
IF MOSHIACH COMES AND, SURPRISE SURPRISE, HE IS NOT THE REBBE, WHAT WILL YOU DO?
1) I WILL HAPPILY ACCEPT HIM
2) NO WAY IN THE WORLD THAT I WILL ACCEPT HIM
3) I WILL GRUDGINGLY ACCEPT HIM
4) I WILL ACCEPT HIM BUT ONLY UPON CONDITION THAT HE IS NOT A SNAG
5) I WILL DO AN "IGROS SEARC" AND FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS
6) I WILL HAVE TO BE SUPERVISED 24 HOURS A DAY - SO AS NOT TO HARM MYSELF
Happily moved to Sydney, After such such a hysterical and hateful demolition job on our Chabad leadership and rabbis in Melbourne all I can say is that I'm happy you moved to Sydney as well...please stay there.
ReplyDeleteFirst we are told "The real [Chabad] scardy cats... were even afraid to sign the original so called harmless Hebrew non-offensive version! ... Because they were petrified what the shul president may tell them... ..." and
ReplyDelete"... the other 'courageous' group who DID sign - have been pedalling backwards at 100 kms an hour ever since."
Then we are told:
"non chabad rabbis would never have been so stupid to sign a paper prepared by some simpleminded [though good intentioned] fanatics."
So in other words Happily moved to Sydney tells us if you're a Chabadnik you are a scardy cat or happily peddling backwards but if you are non-Chabad you are clever for not signing.
With such an analysis he has revealed his true colours and intent. He is in all likilihood not even from the Chabad community but one of those from outside Chabad who are gleefully using this forum to rundown and ridicule us.
I suppose if we are ready to wash our dirty linen in public in the guise of constructive criticsm we have to be prepared for these people to grab the opportunity to indiscriminately bucket us with destructive crtiticism.
Actually it would probably be a good thing if Rabbis Gutnick and Barber did indeed leave Mizrachi Kashrut. Their expertise could then be harnessed to help set-up a proper fully mehadrin kashrus organsiation under Chabad.
ReplyDeleteSince when are we interested in Kashrus!
ReplyDeleteYossi, it is not called Mizrachi Kashrus and hasn't been called that for ages. It is called Kosher Australia. People who like to call it Mizrachi Kashrus like to do so sometimes to put it down by insinuating that it is not so cheriedi and that it's level is more Mizrachi when nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, Rabbi Gutnick is hihgly repsected in the kashrus world as a solid global halachic authority.
ReplyDeleteAnd Yossi, I also had a sneaking suspicion this guy is called happily moved to Sydney is a non-Chabad person disguising himself as a Chabad person and I too detected his anti-Chabad bias.There are a few like him on this blog.
Whatever the Kashrus authority is called it belongs to the Mizrachi Organization. They founded it, they pay for it, they run it, and they alone deserve the credit for giving the Melbourne community Kashrut.
ReplyDeleteI still rememember when Yeshiva college had chalav staam rather than Chalav Yisrael!
ReplyDeleteShoshanna Silcove said...
ReplyDeleteit is not called Mizrachi Kashrus and hasn't been called that for ages. It is called Kosher Australia. People who like to call it Mizrachi Kashrus like to do so sometimes to put it down by insinuating that it is not so cheriedi and that it's level is more Mizrachi ..
...
As a 3rd generation member of Melb's Mizrachi, I am hurt by SS's comments.
The many changes made to Mizrachi Kashrut's name, were not done with the support of us. We have provided Melb with a very high standard of kashrut and accepted as employees RMG and RYBarber as well as RN Sofer. These men good as they are only became known and respected after we Mizrachi employed them. Before that they ran very small [almost backyard]operations. [RNS - not even that]
I - and many others find it insulting to Mizrachi that our name has been treated like dirt - just because we have been fair enough to employ 4 chabadnik employees. Imagine if Beth Rivka had a few more dati leumi teachers who decided to rename the school
Bnei Akiva Girls College!!
That's what we have allowed to happen.
The fact is that Kosher Australia does not belong to 'Australia". It belongs to Mizrachi and if our board or next rabbi wishes to rename it MK and employ more DL type staff, we wil happily drop the KA symbol.
Remember KA is MK and MK is Mizrachi - and we are proud of it - even if is disgruntles some employees.
I don't think that Rabbi Sofer would like being called a Chabadnik!
ReplyDeletebnei akiva and proud of it--you are 100% correct and those people who deride Kosher Australia becuase it is under Mizrachi are completely wrong! I am not at all implying that calling it 'Mizrachi' Kashrus is an insult because I know of its high standards. But the name has changed and certain chereidi people refuse to use the new name Kosher Australia because they feel that by calling it 'Mizrachi' Kashrut they are making it somehow lower. I am saying that certain chereidi people use that name in a deriding way because they look down on Mizrachi and they are wrong for doing so. I know how much Mizrachi has done for kashrus in this city,and I agree with everything you wrote and without it things would be very hard for the kosher consumer. Mizrachi has supported kashrus in Melburne with selfless dedication and sacrifice for many years and have gotten no thanks for it. So,I agree with you, I am with you, but you may have misunderstood my comment.
ReplyDeleteSorry, SS, though I often agree with your points, in this case I strongly differ.
ReplyDeleteMK or KA or whatever is definitely NOT a charedi kashrus.
A charedi kashrus would NEVER list chalav akum products.
EG Rav Landa, Edah Charedis, Kedassia, CH, and evn the non-charedi rabbaut in israel.
I suppose it doesn't help in its charedi claim when one remembers that a previous rabbi of M - who was in charge of the MK org as well - used to public deride chalav yisrael.
Sure, MK employs non-Mizrachi people, as indeed do the vast majority on non-charedi kashrus orgs eg London BD, OU, OK. but none of these claims to be 'charedi' and many charedim prefer a 100% charedi stamp.
I never said it is a cherieidi hechsher, did I? i simply stated that many chereidi people put it down by calling it'Mizrachi' which they look down on.
ReplyDeleteok, one of the worlds most respected hechsherim gives hechsherim to cholov akum.
ReplyDeletei believe they might have even had a response from the Rebbe in regard to this practise.
http://www.chabadtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378
ReplyDeleteand wasn't there a big discussion on that shortlived chabad blog re problems with oils at KA/MK?
ReplyDelete(anyone copy that blog?)
When Rabbi Groner established the Lubavitcher Shechita (against the wishes of the Rebbe!) and a group of chassidim including Rabbi Groner stopped eating from the Adass Shechita after 22 years, my late father in law told Rabbi Groner the only positive thing to not eating from the Adass shechita was that now Lubavitchers don't eat anymore from any and every Hasgocha!!
ReplyDeleteThat is completely untrue and loshon hora. I remember distinctly that we received a brocho from the Rebbe to start our own shechita. I also remember that there were a number of people at that time that only ate Lubavitch shechita even before there was a Chabad butcher.
ReplyDeleteReb Nochum Zalman told me that the REBBE was right to be unhappy about chabad starting a shechita in Melbourne!
ReplyDeleteApparently is took Rabbi Groner a long time to convince the Rebbe to agree.
It was a political move and one that Lubavitch as a whole disagrees with.
ReplyDeleteLubavitch concentrated on make people eat kosher and let the ungarisher provide the kosher food
Well it is well known that the Hungarians make good food!
ReplyDeleteProbably the smartest thing would be for rabbis M Gutnick , Barber & Sofer (plus kasriel Oliver as chemist) to break away from mizrachi. With a good administrator, they could start their own independant (Charedi) kashrus organisation. We could then have a much higher standard, without cholov stam and non mehadrin and other mizrachi baggage that is percieved by some charedim as pulling down the overall standard of their hechsher.
ReplyDeleteWithout R 'M. Gutnick, Mizrachi would'nt stand a chance of being taken seriously in kashrus matters. When the world's Charedi Kashrus organizations (such as the OU, OK, Eida Hachareidis etc) have a kashrus Issue in Australia, they only deal with Rav Mottel Gutnick (and his brother Moshe in Sydeny). The fact that they deal with KA / Mizrachi Kashrus is only because he is there. If he left, they would deal with whichever new organization rav Gutnick would be part of.
Even a better idea may be for the above 4 people to join brother Moshe in Sydney and work on raising the standards to a genuine charedi one and work hand in hand with adass, who would then have no reason to be separate (I understand that some years ago there was talk of a joint operation, but fell apart becuase of certain standard issues and mizrachi personaliy matters.
ReplyDeleteIf they came to fruition, Mizrachi could still continue an independent operation on behalf of religious but non charedi jews who will continue to accept their standards.
Who knows? It could all still happen when the new rabbi arrives next week and wants to take over the kashrus again.
Happily moved to sydney,
ReplyDeletethanks for joining our blog.
I was wondering when the hate spewing would begin.
I don't know why you feel so threatned by Chabad, but you sound quite pathetic, because nothing you wrote makes any sense.
1)You say Chabad rabbis are the most wishy washy in town-
ummm, who are the strong ones then? Rav Beck? Rav wurzburger? All these two ever do is nod and smile. They NEVER take a stance. If I had to chose a strong outspoken rabbi, I'd go to R'Groner , who like his birthdate, has always had a reputation in town as being Gvurah shebegvurah. Last time I checked he was a Chabad rabbi.
2)The new rabbi of Mizrachi Sprung, (like the old rabbi Cohen), is a self confessed lightweight in kashrus. He does not want any part of it. Mizrachi couldnt run a kashrus organization without the Chabad rabbis it employs. Same with the beis din. no chabad rabbis, because of lack of qualifications / expertees from the communal non chabad rabbis.
3) Have you ever attended a rabbinical council meeting? probably 75% of the rabbis are chabad. Chabad DEFINITELY controls the rabbinate here. The few non chabad rabbis sit at the back like outsiders. (All three Presidents of the RCV since its establishment in 1967 have been Chabad. The current President of ORA (unofficial Cheif rabbi) is Chabad.
Dude, wake up. you've been living in Sydney too long. And stop trying to pretend to be a lubavitcher, there is too much hate there.
achdus, it would not work. the new rabbi is not qualified or interested in kashrus.
ReplyDeleteZalman, what planet are you on????
ReplyDeleteYou ask, why are baal Teshuvos not coming to Chabad???
Dude, just walk into say, the Chabad house in Malvern. they are expanding their shul for the 3rd time. This is just one of MANY. Glen Eira, Hamerkaz Shelanu and Central all just bought or are buying million dollar properties.
Heck, there's never been more shluchim in the world as there are now. And they have never been more successful
Stop complaining for the sake of complaining.
enough with this Lubavitch / non Lubavitch rabbis competition "ï'm better than you" thingy.
ReplyDeletemany of the supposed community rabbis that are Lubavitch are not fanatical Lubavitchers, but are community rabbis that happen to be Lubavitch. the die hard lubabs call them "Lubavitchers with a small L."
Take Rabbi M. Gutnick for example. he is the head of ORA and senior rabbi of Kashrus and practically runs the new Beis Din. So what? Why should this pose a threat to any non lubavitch person in the community? He, like his father, is broad minded, menchlech, and knowlegeable. He can work well in all circles and is respected in all circles. So what, you're complaining because he wears a kappotah on Shabbos? Thats probably the only practical difference there is.
mivtza kashrus said
ReplyDeleteand wasn't there a big discussion on that shortlived chabad blog re problems with oils at KA/MK?
**********
That was Adass propaganda. Adass constantly looks to defame Kosher Australia, partly because they can't swallow the fact that the OU and Eida deal only with KA and not adass when they have projects in Australia.
TO ANONYMOUS!
ReplyDeleteWhen I spoke about BT's I meant people who have been mekareved and have become frum. Unfortunately at the chabad houses that you are referring to they are expanding R'Gashmius but actually people becoming Shomrei Torah U'Mitzvos I have my doubts. After 12-13 years some Chabad Houses are battling to get a minyan shomrei shabbos, forget proper frum as Lubavitch so succesfully achieved in the 60's, 70's and 80's!
zalman, I have often wondered about this as well, and looked around and asked the same questions-where are the BT's? It seems there is so much money being raised by these Chabad Houses, and where does it all go to? It also seems to me some of the Chabad Houses are nothing but hostels for international students and Israelis backpackers who come to town to party and drop off for nice meals and free accomodation at Chabad House. But are they getting any guidance?
ReplyDeleteThe party line that the shluchim like to push is that the success of their programs is judeged by the high the numbers of people who attended. But is it quantity or quality that counts? Is it better to be statisfied with large numbers of Jews in attendance who learn nothing much and do not get affected enough to increase in observance, or should our goal be to help less people who actually wind up committing themselves to more Torah observance? have the Chabad Houses become too shallow in their approach? I suspect that in many cases they have. Bread and circuses is not ufaratzah.
I know there are those who will condemn me for raising these questions becuase they will percieve this as baggging the Chabad Houses. That is not my intention. I merely wonder about these issues and ask these questions and I also wonder if anyone else has any thoughts on these things. Are my perceptions on the mark or not?
shoshana and zalman have hit the nail on the head.
ReplyDeleteIn the 60s, 70s and 80s BTs were to be found all over Melb - and all the product of the Yeshiva Centre [there nothing else at the time and Bet Hatalmud hadn't arrived on the scene yet].
By a simple calculation, having about 8-10 local Chabad Houses and with our natural growth, we should have had hundreds of new families in the past decade. And what do we find? Sadly very very few new families in our midst. One can tell from the student numbers in YCBR.
So what is happening?
IMHO it must be the fault of the newer rabbis and shluchim who basically run "Chabad shops" for parnoso and kavod reasons, rather than kiruv.
A friend from CH recently spent some time here and took the time to check out every single Chabad House in Melb.
He said that while the buildings are very impressive - very few of our lost Jews have made any serious committment to Torah and mitzvos. True, a few may put on tefilin on some Sundays and other will accept shmura matzos and mishloach manos, but when it comes to a kosher home, shabbos observance, tahara hamishpacho etc, the shluchim have been spectacularly unsuccessful.
Ohel Devora offers a wonderful service to travelling backpackers, but how many of the thousands who have pased through its portals have been convinced to change.
Yossell' Caulfield CH doesn't even pretend to do kiruv.
Malvern has been going for a long time and has high profile. But as someone wrote, have they created even 10 shomrei shabbos in that period?
Hamerkas Shelanu tries, by it is known as a haven for israelis with non Jewish partners.
Central keeps the South Africans happy, but with no visible improvemnt of their standards.
And so it goes.
We need a real shake up to get back to old standards.
OTOH the Chabad Houses in Sydney have a higher percentage of success
(I don't know why. Maybe some of the shlichim are better trained or take it more seriously)
Hamerkaz shalanu had a Purim Party. I doubt if any modern orthodox shule would accept the behaviour that was going on.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately there were many non Jewish female partners there! We left rather shocked.
I suppose it comes down this: how far are shluchim willing to go in bending the rules of halacha in order to gain a following? How much watering down of Torah content of their outreach programs are they willing to tolerate in order to attract people?
ReplyDeleteI was mekareved 20 years ago (showing my age). Things were different then. The shluchim spent time with me one on one and we delved deeply into the meaning of Torah & mitzvos, had deep discussions, and the outreach programs I attended were not the glittering splashy parties they run nowadays. The outreach programs were thought provoking, and while there was some entertainment, that was not ALL there was, like nowadays.
The new 'BT's' over the last five years I have met seem to be less steeped in Torah, less Jewishly educated, and much more liberal in their views and values than they used to be. It is almost as if all one needs to be a BT these days is to want to belong to the social club called Chabad.
The Rebbe was against watering down Torah in order to attract people, and he pointed out that when shluchim do this, they actually wind up not really mekareving anyone in any real sense of what the word means. They may swell their ranks, but the people involved have a very tentative, superficial connection to anything but the chitzonius of Chabad.
The shluchim who bring people in and leave them as half-baked pseudo BT's are actually doing these people are great disservice that they pay for down the line, especially when they have their own children, and that is when the tsuris starts. And who pays for this tsuris? You and I , the school, and the community too.
I know I will be condemned again for bagging shluchim, so as a disclaimer I will say I believe that there are many great shluchim around doing great things, but we need to also evaluate where we have to improve, especaily when we see that there are very few full fledged BT's being produced and so many Chabad Houses. And I am talking to myself too, because as we all know, to the Rebbe we are all shluchim.
Spot on, Shoshana and Sad.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of members in Melb's Chabad houses [or Shops as Sad called them) would not even qualify as a very weak Modern Orthodox in any other other place.
The shluchim must revert to the rebbe's derech and [in a pleasant way] DEMAND unwatered-down yiddishkeit.
Plus, once having been mekareved, keep teaching them Torah, halacha and chasidus. Thi s never stops.
This has been the reason for the strong success of Merkaz Hatorah and Beth Talmud. They continually increase their newcomers knowledge.
Then we will see
I think you people are living in a different city.
ReplyDeleteEvery year at the Gimmel Tammuz Oration at the Werdiger hall, I notice more people than the year before. new faces, with hats and beards, recent mekurovim mostly. That is a good measuring stick to see the growth of our community.
I could give you a long list of names , but I don't think its approriate on this forum.
I think the Shluchim are doing a fantastic job at making BTs. The problem they seem to be having is keeping them. Once a BT becomes a little more serious and interest they seem to go off to Beis Hatalmud or to R'Kohn's minyan. The YC need to look at providing more serious support service for the people on the front line. This would mean having a Kollel that can serves the needs of the broader community.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteEvery year at the Gimmel Tammuz Oration at the Werdiger hall, I notice more people than the year before. new faces, with hats and beards, recent mekurovim mostly. That is a good measuring stick to see the growth of our community.
""""""""""
The ONLY measuring stick is student numbers in YBR.
Check the figures today as compared to 10 years ago.
Deduct the children of shluchim. imported teachers and imported spouses and I think you will find that BT family kids are way way down
I think if we want to talk about recent BT's , none are more noteworthy than Eliezer and Luba Kornhauser. Since becoming frum, they have dedicated their lives to making other people frum and this is really Chabad is all about. G-d bless these wonderful people.
ReplyDeleteI bet you won't find any traces of AE on their home computer.
yeah, the Kornhaousers have the money to do it and they use it well. Not everyone has the funds to set up their own outreach programs becuase most people are working hard to keep afloat themselves.
ReplyDeleteaussie gal said...
ReplyDeletedon't give excuses for other people.
if there is a will there is a way.
if you're really interested in doing outreach, the funds always come up (as is seen worldwide)
unless you're like others on this blog that spend their time critisizing others, and giving great ideas FOR OTHERS to do.
I know that Ausssie Gal is doing outreach work.
ReplyDeleteBless you Aussie gal. nay you go from strength to strength.If you need a shidduch.. I may be able to help.
sure the Kornhausers are wealthy monitarily but they too are wealthy in mitzvos and are good examples for us all.
ReplyDeletethey have literally opened their home and dedicate their lives to mekareving yidden to Torah and Mitzvos.
When was the last time any of the complainers on this blog have opned their homes to mekurovim, hosted a shiur, (or given one if they are capable), gone the extra mile for the sake of chassidus and the rebbes inyonim???? You don't need to be wealthy to do this!!
The kornhausers were just an example. there are MANY, MANY good people in our community, who are not necessarily wealthy, all doing good work. Lets show some appreciation instead of constantly criticizing.
what??
ReplyDeletedid i read correctly???
did someone just say i should actually show some appreciation? NO WAY! I loooove to criticize and this is the best thing about this web site. I can complain, ridicule and whinge all day long to my hearts content!
please don't try to deny me the few pleasures I have left in my pathetic existence.
Is it true that Eliezer was made frum by Bet Hatalmud?
ReplyDeleteDon't know who made him frum. But if it was Beth Hatalmud they obviously weren't ready to support him publicly in this venture. I wonder why.....
ReplyDeleteThe only open support he appears to have got was from some fringe Chabadniks.
to zalman
ReplyDeleteEliezer (eric) Kornhauser is a product of Chabad house of Malvern and later Reb Arel. Beth Hatalmud wish they could take credit for such a special person, but If you know him you will understand that only Chassidus can "catch" a guy like that.
to yankel
What the heck are you talking about? Are you confusing Eliezer (eric) kornhauser with moshe elkman?
Get off this blog, you have no idea....
I know Kornhauser as Eric and didn't know who Eliezer was. Thought it was a indeed another name for Elkman. Sorry. But the confusion was caused by you saying that Eliezer was involved with Beth Hatalmud and Elkman has been involved with Beth Hatalmud though they probasbly wouldn't want that too publicised at this time. Eric Kornhauser hasn't/isn't - though they would probably would welcome your suggestion that he was.
ReplyDeletewhat did eliezer K. do wrong that he is being analyzed and is the topic of discussion on this site by morons that have nothing to do with their lives
ReplyDeleteI was at Eric/Eliezers Wedding. There were quite a number of Bet Hatalmud fellows there?!
ReplyDeleteJust want to make the point that when a BT is wealthy like Konrhauser they get so much more attention from the Chabad shulchim than the non-rich ones. I wonder if the rich BT's think these shluchim love them or do they realize they are wanted for something else? Try being a regular non-rich BT and you will see hardly any of the shluchim will know or care if you are alive.
ReplyDeletefacts of life, I think you have a major chip on your shoulder
ReplyDeletedisgusted
ReplyDeleteno one is bagging E.K., he is a great guy. Someone just brought him up as an EXAMPLE of a Baal Teshuvah who gives back to his community and does positive with his life as oppsosed to some other BTs (some who are prominently featured on this blog) who just complain all day, have no interest in doing anything positive, and are generally burderns to their community.
Lots of shluchim are too obvious in their favouring the rich BT's. It is disugsting to watch thenm fawn all over them like bees to honey.Lots of shluchim only pay attention to Bt's when they can get something out of them or when they want to make themselves feel superior for 'saving' them. The complaint by thousands of Bt's has always been that once they are made frum they are forgotten and the shluchim take not one iota of responsiblity for helping them set up their future lives as frum people, unless of course, the Bt's are rich or have some other attribute the shluchim find useful.
ReplyDeleteNot all shluchim are like this but there are enough of them for most people to see this is true
perhaps "facts of life" is right to a small degree
ReplyDeleteHowever having said that, the Beth Hatalmud and the Non-Chassidic elements who who adapted Chabad's revolutionary hashkafa of outreach (kiruv)have this problem to a far greater degree.
this is because chassidus teaches unconditional ahavas yisroel and this is the rebbe's shitah, and even though not every sheliach is perfect, certainly those elements who do it for kovod and without chassidus will have a much greater probability of being selective in who they choose to mekarev.
Oh, so we are better than Beis HaTalmud and that makes it okay that we are not living up to our own ideals?
ReplyDeleteBuddy, have you hung around Beis HaTalmud circles lately? We could learn from thier example!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI went both to Kollel Beis Haltalmud(KBH) and to Chabad for guidance as a BT.Their approaches are different and both have some merit.I am not wealthy and my wife and I both work full time so we can put 2 of our 3 children through a jewish education.My other daughter in is state school as she was put off by BRLC due to the Yechi stuff as well as Scopus because of the not wealthy syndrome.
ReplyDeleteBoth organisations need to learn that first we are YIDDEN, not chattels that can be thrown around like a schmutta.Unless you conform 100% to their idealogies ,you are not really wanted.As BTs we needed to move slowly in the right direction.The problem I see and came across ,is the immaturity of the people giving direction.
It is a delicate phase and luckily in our case we found a Chabad Rabbi (not in East StKilda)who worked with us and did not push us.What is important is that Kiruv requires trained people.Putting people into schluchus with no experience MAY be dangerous and off putting.
How can a young couple in their early twenties guide a family in their 40s and 50s.You may disagree but experience does count.
My advice for what it is worth,you cannot expect all BTs to be chassidim.We are Yidden first.Employ peopletrained in Kiruv.Because we do not have lots of money treat us with compassion
and humility as we go through,complete and enter a new phase after the transition.
May you all be blessed in you work.
Anyone involved in making non religious Jews frum is a soldier in the rebbes army. 40 years ago Chabad was ridiculed and ostracised by other Charedim for reaching out to the non religious. the rebbe was a revolutionary and when others saw the success of Chabad they jumped on the bandwagon. I don't think the Rebbe would have cared if they became frum through Chabad or non Chabad, as long as they were coming back to torah and Mitzvos.
ReplyDeleteSo Beit Hatalmud is a Chabad House???
ReplyDeleteI'm confused
No, Bais Hatalmud is a Litvisher Kollel. However the element of the Litvisher reaching out to non-religious Jews to mekarev them was unheard of 40 years ago. This is a revolution of Chabad, and the Litvishers mocked Çhabad back then for that.
ReplyDeleteSo, yes, I guess the Litvacks slowly adapted Chabads philosophy, to an extent. They may have a slightly different agenda, but hey, I don't think the Rebbe would have cared. Jews coming back to Yiddishkeit is a good thing, wether its thru Chabad or the Litvacks.
To quote the late Rabbi Chaim Gutnick Z"L-
ReplyDelete"We are all fighting the same war"
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletedisgusted
as oppsosed to some other BTs (some who are prominently featured on this blog) who just complain all day, have no interest in doing anything positive, and are generally burderns to their community.
This comment was written by someone consumed with hatred and should be removed. If someone exposes their thought on this blog by revealing their identity it is not just for some lowlife to come along anonymously and throw mud at a contributor!
If we have more Ahavas Yisroel than the Litvaks I must have been misunderstanding this blog all the time.
ReplyDeleteThe comment "to aussie echo" shows the wonderful ahavas yisroel of the coward calling himself/herself anonymous!
ReplyDeleteRafi - who is we. I don't believe you are a Lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteAred we honestly ecxpected to believew that their are so many self-hating Lubavitchers? 90% of this blog has been written by non-Lubavitchers who obviously setting up Chabad.
not fooled
ReplyDeleteyou are a genius!!
I think 100% of this blog is written by non Lubavitchers!
ReplyDeleteI am told the true figure is 81.5% to be exact.
ReplyDelete73% of all statistics are made u
ReplyDeleteI have just read in The Age that the exact figure is 109%
ReplyDeleteJust for the record.
It is hard to work out who is more guilty, the 33 rabbis or Oliver?
ReplyDelete" I think 100% of this blog is written by non Lubavitchers!"
ReplyDeleteis that with you included?
Ad MOSAI:
ReplyDelete(First note the correct spelling - ad MOISA means something quite different.... and we don't need to bring up the Chevrah Kadishah here unless we're ready for a new argument.)
What's there to work out? The fact is that whoever is to blame the whole exercise was a disaster.
Because people are demanding from Oliver to apologize, but no one has asked the group of 33 to apologize!
ReplyDeleteWhat do the group of rabbis need to apologise for? For being conned?!
ReplyDeleteAs they lied!
ReplyDeleteThat they supported Oliver and Elkman then put the knife in them!
That Elkman was hyped up to do what he did by his local chabad house Rabbi!
That Rabbis claimed they did not know it was a Psak!
Plus other issues of them backtracking and passing the buck.
Rabbis Liberov, Levin, Gutnick and Barber have principles.
WHAT ARE OUR RABBIS GOING TO DO TO THE TRAITORS WHO ARE TRYING TO PORTRAY ISRAEL AS IF THEY STEAL LAND AND CREATE REFUGEES!
ReplyDeleteSharon has made Israel Treifa.
ReplyDeleteWho cares about the zionists that threw out jews from Gush Katif and handed it to the Arabs.
We doin't want Israel anymore! They went against the Moshiach!
Mishiachistim are now openly against Israel as they lost the Gush Katif war they tried to create. So the Rebbes views are out the window regarding the love and support of Israel.
ReplyDeleteHashem has been discarded years ago by these zealots.
The Rebbe countless times stressed as forcefullly as he could that the many details about Moshiach, including whether or not he can come back from the dead, have already been definitively codified in Jewish law, specifically in Ramabam's Yad Hachazoka, Hilchos Melachim Chapter 11. This is an unambigious ruling, the order of events of Moshach's coming, that after Moshaich completes building of the Beis Hamikdosh in EY etc, that the Rebbe emphasisised was never disputed by any of the Torah greats throughout history, including himself!
ReplyDeleteThe believers in the Rebbe's resurrection as Moshiach, although they include Torah scholars and the highly intelligent among us, failed the very test the Rambam prophetically foretold, for it truly applies to them what the Rambam has written that 'some of the men of understanding will fail' for they have stumbled and fell into acceptance of this defintely non-Jewish tenent of a second coming. But because they can be so clever and convincing, they have become extremely adept at creating a smoke screen of false reasoning to make it seem they are correct--just as the Gemora relates, specifically Talmud scholars were able to invent hundreds of reasons to purify an insect, which regardles of all the reasons still remains impure!
Most Moshichists skirt the troubling issues and even hide the plain words of the Ramabam (and of the Rebbe) by simply pretending they do not exist. By doing so they are following in the footsteps of the Christian censors of the Dark Ages, who ruthlessly deleted words from publications of the Rambam since they so totally shatter any credibility or belief in a second coming.
One of the most dangerous consequences of the messianic carnival that has overtaken Lubavitch society during the past two decades has been its exploitation by fundamentalist Christian missionaries. Reporting on a California highway billboard with the phone number of a Christian mission to the Jews, a picture of Schneerson and the words "Right Idea: Wrong Person," Rabbi Berger concludes with sadness that "the profound theological differences between Judaism and Christianity have been reduced to a matter of mistaken identity."
ReplyDeletejust for as long as it will last on this blog
Good morning. Many claim that the Yechiniks have more in common with chritianity than with Judaism. They surely make it hard to decide!
ReplyDeleteTo Rafi.
ReplyDeleteIt is not fair to generalise!
I agree there are those who have dropped Hashem totally and all that counts is the Rebbe/Moshiach.
But not all. Some are just misguided.
The question is when Moshiach comes and if it will be someone else will these mishiachisten accept the real Moshiach. Just imagine if Shach is the Moshiach???????????
I have a problem with comments like "one day we will face the Rebbe" What has happened with Hashem.
The story goes that the Mishiachisten doven to the Rebbe that Hashem should be well!
A neighbour of mine told me that the only reason he keeps shabbos etc. is because the Rebbe did! I asked him why has he children if the Rebbe didn't?
ReplyDeleteFor thousands of years Jews were persecuted by the Chrisitan world because they did not accept JC. Jews died on the chopping block, al Kidduh Hashem, because they refused to accept the Chrisitian idea of a resurrected Messiah, of a second coming. For thousands of years all the greatest Gedolim of all the generations held firmly to this principle. And since the times of the Ramabam EVERY single gadol in Klal Yisroel throughout the world all pointed to the Rambam as the one halachic authority in this matter and the ALL agreed, including the Rebbe that the Rambam was THE SINGLE AUTHORITY ON HILCHOS MOSHICAH, and that there is not any room whatsoever in Torah for a resurrected Moshiach and a second coming.
ReplyDeleteOver the past decade or so the Moshichstin have turned their backs on thousands of years of Torah scholarship and have accepted this Chrisitan idea.
" A neighbour of mine told me that the only reason he keeps shabbos etc. is because the Rebbe did!"
ReplyDeleteis that for real?
The Jerusalem Post - 2003
ReplyDeleteA messianism that some call heresy
By Jacob Neusner
- To Chabad's claim that their Rebbe is the Messiah, Jews for Jesus respond: 'Right idea, wrong man'. To Order...
Two fifth columns threaten the integrity of Judaism: theological liberalism run amok and halachic Christianity. Both trends lower the walls that separate Judaism from Christianity - one from the Right, the other from the Left.
The lesser known left column, Dabru Emet, legitimizes the Christian Bible. The group's platform says: "Jews and Christians seek authority from the same book - the Bible, what Jews call Tanach and Christians call the Old Testament." The group's reward is typified by the Archbishop of Canterbury's statement that, in light of Dabru Emet, Christianity has no reason to proselytize among Jews any longer.
But a greater danger to Judaism's insistence that the authenticity of the Torah from Sinai (oral and written) takes precedence over any other claim comes from the Right.
It takes the form of authentic Judaic living, to validate the substance of Christian Messianism. And this threat from within is represented, not by scarcely 200 Reform and Conservative "Dabru Emet" rabbis of little faith, but by the halachic Christianity of Chabad.
In the name of Halacha, which it claims to carry out authentically, Chabad proclaims its deceased rabbi to be the royal Messiah and the embodiment of God, who will rise from the dead to do what he did not do in his initial life on earth.
Chabad wins followers by programs of impeccable philanthropy, and uses those followers in a sectarian mission of false Messianism. Chabad Messianists present themselves as the true Judaism, teaching that their Messiah, now dead, will soon rise from the grave. To this, the Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus and even Episcopalian bishops respond, "Right idea, wrong man."
In the years since the death of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe in 1994, Chabad - with its dead Messiah - has come to predominate in missionary activity among the Jews in tiny communities. Chabad is a potent force: 2,600 institutions around the world, large numbers of English-speaking rabbis, control of most of Judaism in Italy as well as the chief rabbinate of Russia (its Russia budget alone is $20 million a year). It is an organization with immense world-wide financial resources.
Theologically, Chabad exploits a veneer of halachic authenticity that threatens the future of Judaism.
For this reason, the accomplished scholar and Orthodox intellectual, David Berger - a professor of History at Brooklyn College - has spent the years since 1994 calling attention to the very real danger to authentic Judaism that is represented by Chabad's Messianism.
In this passionate, powerful, brilliant polemic, Berger marks himself as a sage-prophet - the learning of a sage joined to the authentic vision of a true prophet.
And this authentic voice records, not only conviction, but evidence and argument: who said what in response to challenge, and who stayed mute.
The Rebbe, the Messiah says Berger, is "a memoir, a history, a religious tractÉ an indictment, a lament, and an appeal." He wants Judaism to defend itself by delegitimizing Chabad. This requires denying the kashrut of Chabad restaurants and the legitimacy of its public worship, its synagogues and its books. Even a Torah scroll written by a Chabad Messianist should not to be used, he says. In fact, a Chabad Messianist should not be counted, any more than some other "Messianic Jew," for a minyan.
WITH exceptional clarity of purpose and an argument that marks the book as a small masterpiece of religious writing, Berger exposes a Chabad theology that believes:
* "A specific descendant of King David may be identified with certainty as the Messiah even though he died in an unredeemed world. The criteria always deemed necessary for a confident identification of the Messiah - the temporal redemption of the Jewish people, a rebuilt Temple, peace and prosperity, the universal recognition of the God of Israel - are null and void.
* "The messianic faith of Judaism allows for the following scenario: God will finally send the true Messiah to embark upon his redemptive mission. The long-awaited redeemer will declare that all preparations for the redemption have been completed and announce without qualification that the fulfillment is absolutely imminent. He will begin the process of gathering the dispersed of Israel to the Holy Land. He will proclaim himself a prophet, point clearly to his messianic status, and declare that the only remaining task is to greet him as Messiah. And then he will die and be buried without having redeemed the world.
* "To put the matter more succinctly, the true Messiah's redemptive mission, publicly proclaimed and vigorously pursued, will be interrupted by death and burial and then consummated through a Second Coming."
Then comes Berger's "j'accuse": "A substantial majority of a highly significant Orthodox movement called Lubavitch or Chabad Hassidism affirms that the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, who was laid to rest in 1994 without leaving a successor, did everything subsumed under proposition two and will soon return to complete the redemption in his capacity as the Messiah. Hassidim who proclaim this beliefÉ hold significant religious positions sanctioned by major Orthodox authorities with no relationship to their movement."
Berger's detailed account of "this historic mutation of Judaism" is gripping and detailed. He has fought against this heresy despite its power in numbers, money and veneer of Orthodox authenticity.
He has received much private, even anonymous support, but gained only grudging public support, and then at a heavy price. But he has persisted, and, as time passes and Rabbi Schneerson does not rise from his grave in Queens, Berger's defense of authentic Judaism will be vindicated and the many who vilified him will be shamed.
Shabtai Zevi contributed to the history of Judaism little more than an occasion for writing books about the false Messiah. Schneerson, a century from now, will provide a fine living for generations of graduate students doing dissertations on the history of Judaism. And the first book they will open in their study of this weird phenomenon - a signal of the decayed state of post-Holocaust Orthodox faith in particular - is Berger's remarkable
contribution.
This is simply the most important book of Judaism - not about Judaism but of Judaism - to appear this year, and the most urgent in decades.
The reviewer is professor of religion and theology at Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, NY
Q&A with David Berger - Veteran Brooklyn College History Professor David Berger has a reputation for being both a scholar and an outstanding lecturer. A kippa-wearing Orthodox Jew, Berger received rabbinic ordination from the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary at Yeshiva University. Despite his soft-spoken scholarly demeanor, Berger is passionate about his exposŽ of Chabad. It is, he says, of "transcendent importance."
Does mainstream Chabad really believe that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a Jesus-like diety? - Religious mentors in the major yeshivas of Chabad in both Israel and the United States, publications issued by mainstream Chabad, and influential, highly educated Lubavitch laymen, take the following assertions literally: The supremely righteous, of whom the Rebbe and Moses are the chief exemplars, annul their own essence to the point where their entire Essence is that of God. It is permissible to bow to them with this understanding. For this reason, the Rebbe is omniscient, omnipotent, and entirely without limits. He is "indistinguishable" from God.
Because he is a transparent window for pure divinity, a "man-God," "when you speak to him, you speak to God."
There are Chabad hasidim who reject such formulations but there is no question that these beliefs are well represented in the mainstream.
Nevertheless, what about those who insist that Chabad's messianist camp is a minority faction? - Regrettably, this assertion is pure propaganda. In Crown Heights, the main synagogue at Lubavitch headquarters is a messianist stronghold where the Rebbe's messiahship is proclaimed at every prayer service.
The Rabbinic court is messianist; the largest men's school (Oholei Torah/Oholei Menachem), the women's seminary Machon Chanah, and other educational institutions are shot through with messianism; the messianist slogan is on a banner posted on the headquarters of the Chabad Women's Organization; and much more.
In Israel, the rabbi of Kfar Chabad signed a rabbinic ruling that Jewish law requires belief in the Rebbe's Messiahship, and the major columnist of the journal Beis Moshiach is a mentor in Yeshiva Tomchei Temimim there.
The large Chabad school system in Safed teaches the Rebbe's Messiahship.
Over 60 Israeli rabbis, including chief rabbis of several towns, signed the messianist ruling.
The situation among emissaries is somewhat better, but that ruling was signed by many of them, including the Chief Rabbi of the former Soviet Union and 16 of the major emissaries there. There are indeed non-messianists in Chabad, but they are clearly outnumbered.
People joke that "Chabad is the religion closest to Judaism." Why take their theology so seriously? - The inclination to joke about this development is one of many reasons for the failure of mainstream Orthodoxy to act. In fact, Chabad is a movement of monumental importance. Observant Jews are profoundly dependent on its emissaries all over the world, it plays a major role in kosher food preparation and supervision worldwide, its rabbis
dominate or are poised to dominate Jewish communities in a startling number of countries.
While your question reflects a widely held perception, that perception is so off the mark as to be the near opposite of the truth.
It will be exceedingly difficult to save Judaism from this catastrophe precisely because of the central role of Chabad in Jewish life.
If that's the case, why don't Orthodox authorities speak out? Have any disassociated themselves from Chabad? - I devote an entire chapter - "Explaining the Inexplicable" - to this question, and the forthcoming issue of Modern Judaism will publish a somewhat elaborated version entitled "The Fragility of Religious Doctrine: Accounting for Orthodox Acquiescence in the Belief in a Second Coming."
Among the reasons for this acquiescence are: The "good things" done by the movement, the desire for unity, the dependence on Chabad, the conviction that this is a transient insanity, a blinkered concern with one's own subgroup, and the instinct that people who look and behave like hassidim must be Orthodox Jews. Moreover, Orthodox education no longer focuses on polemical literature against messianic Christianity. There is a startling degree of theological relativism among even very Orthodox Jews.
"Judaism," I write in the book "which was once a great faith, is now an agglomeration of dress, deportment and ritual." Add to all this the financial and political influence of Chabad, and the difficulty of waging this battle is thrown into even bolder relief.
Nevertheless, don't you agree that bringing lost soul's to Chabad's brand of Judaism is better than having them lost to Judaism altogether? - A reasonable question. One of the major obstacles I face is the need to convince people that it's the wrong question.
The answer to this question is "yes," though the answer becomes less unequivocal if we are speaking about belief in the Rebbe as divine. In fact, we face a very different question.
Is it acceptable to smash the boundaries of the faith to pieces if doing this will attract thousands or even hundreds of thousands of irreligious Jews to the transformed religion?
Recognizing Chabad messianists as Orthodox rabbis in good standing abolishes Judaism's criteria for identifying the Messiah and awards victory to Christianity on a key issue in the historic Jewish-Christian debate.
One does not undermine Judaism in order to save it.
- Elliot Jager
This guy sure has guts!
ReplyDeleteThis fellow Berger needs to be locked up!
ReplyDelete