This afternoon I received an email from Moshe Elkman with an attached pdf file offering a $100 gift voucher to anyone who can spot the difference between the Hebrew & English versions of the famous "psak". There have been many requests to see the original version which was signed by the 33 rabbis and I am pleased to be able to post it here. Click on the Hebrew or English version above to see a more readable copy.
If anyone would like the original pdf version please email me at aussieecho@gmail.com and I will be happy to send it to you.
Have a Good Shabbos.
This is hilarious in a sick kinda of a way!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI think Mr. Elkman will have to give a $100 voucher to the entire Yeshivah College mesivtah, who seem quite keen to have taken up his challenge...
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something here or has the holy concept of a psak become a circus?
ReplyDeleteAE, I think this entry should have been entered in the "humour for erev shabbos" section.
ReplyDeletei guess its pretty much all over now. The end of a sad chapter in Jewish history and an even sadder one in melbourne jewish community. Probably twenty years for lubavitch to regain their credibility in melbourne and who knows how much more damage these fringe dark elements will do between now and then. Its all abit gloomy im afraid . All the more reason for Moshiach to come and solve all our problems. i honestly see no other way up from here.
ReplyDeletehey i found 9 differences is that $900 thats about four or five coats i can save money on heating yay, what a pity winters almost ove
ReplyDelete(singing quietly to myself (TTO if i were a rich man)
"if i were a coat man yada bi ba bi ba yada bi ba bay")
good one Anonymous. I love that humour.
ReplyDeleteFor the previous Anonymous... Please lift up your head and start working towards a better future. There is no room for Negativity and Depression NOW. We all need to Work Hard and move forward. This will help us in more ways then just bring Moshiach. Sitting back and crying for Moshiach is a cop-out.
ReplyDeleteJust a thought. Maybe all the anonymous people should be given a number or something to identify them specifically on each occassion.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it should end on this note. I think it is important to learn from this episode for the future. Before this chapter is closed something needs to be set in place to ensure that unrepresentative and irresponsible amateurs like Elkman and Oliver should never again be allowed to set themselves up as representing Chabad or anyone else. They need to be clearly exposed and clearly publicised by the leaders of Chabad and the community in general as nothing other than the group of unrepresentative radicals that they are. Otherwise we risk more of the same dangerous farce in the future.
ReplyDeleteYou all love to criticise.Whether it be against M.Elkman,YCBR PTB, CTZ Groner.
ReplyDeleteLook in the mirror first, are you all so perfect that you can teach the world about loshon hora,ahavas yisroel,etc.
With this attitude it is no wonder the yidden say in jest
"Lubavitch is the closest thing to Judaism"
Before your spite comes in, you need to know I am an einikel of the AR and it really addens me.
To lose weight quickly,
ReplyDeleteStop the schmaltz herring,take it easy on the cholent and go for a good walk on Shabbos
Einikel of the AR (aka are you all so perfect). Don't defend the idefensible with invalid advice. It was Yoshke I believe who said let he who is free of sin cast the first stone. The jewish way (lehavdil) is haloimeid mikol odom. Just because someone is not perfect doesn't mean that he should not be listened to if he gives good advice. (Otherwise there would ever be the opportunity to give and receive advice - is there anyine who is perfect?)
ReplyDelete"You are all so perfect" is a hypocrite and two faced.
ReplyDeleteFirst you talk about how everyone talks loshon hora and then you say degrading comments about Lubavitch yourself.
I hear they are planning to charge him
ReplyDeleteTo " are ou are all so perfect", stp saying you are an Einikel of the Alter Rebbe, stop trying to pretend to be a lubab, get off our blog, and get a life please.
ReplyDeletepeople who say in jest "Lubavitch is the closest thing to Judaism" are usually obnoxious, nisht faginer chabad haters.
ReplyDeleteLook around you, honey . Most of the shuls here are led by chabad rabbis. Most of the kosher meat shechted in this town is by chabad shochtim. Almost all of the divorces, conversions, burial soc., plus many of the hechshairim, marriages, bar mitzvas and other the fundementals of jewish life are preformed by Chabad rabbis. If not for the good work of Chabad in the past 50 years , our city would not be half as Jewish as it is today. Even the anti religious anti Chabad Jewish News says that.
So stop using the pathetic lines (that are commonly used by the chabad haters), because they have no valitity and you sound like a fool.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteHow do some Rabbis claim that they did not know that the paper they signed is a PSAK, when the original starts of with the words PSAK HALACHA?
ReplyDeleteOne even claimed that he is not qualified to give a psak!
Actually the one who said that he was not qualified is indeed not a Rov - so he was at least honest in that reagrd! Those who however billed him as being one of thirty three "rabbis" have again in this way further shown THEIR deceit.
ReplyDeleteBut only in that regard, as he claims he did not know it was a Psak.
ReplyDeleteAnd besides if he is not a Rabbi WHY DID HE SIGN THE PSAK??????????
So obviously he indeed didn't know it was a psak - which leads us to ask what exactly went on here? So we're back to the first comment posted by erev shabbos - this whole episode actually looks like a very sick and sad joke.... Any wonder it was such a disaster.
ReplyDeleteWith G-d's assistance
ReplyDeleteDear friend,
Find below the online report from the Australian "Jewish" News forbidding the threatened expulsion of Jews, G-d forbid, in the strongest, most unequivocal terms.
My part in it, in which I have a tremendous privilege, is that I adapted and wrote it.
It is such a tremendous Kiddush Hashem to openly declare the view of Torah, and it makes me very proud of my Rabbinical colleagues, and I pray that it will indeed be effective in nullifying the wicked decree.
The joke is getting sicker and sadder...
ReplyDeleteBoth english and hebrew version are really too small to read easily.
ReplyDeleteplease repost larger.
but from what i have been able to decipher their is VERY little difference between both.
Maybe oliver and elkman are saying the truth whilst the 33 rabbis, shichtim teachers property developers etc are not?
maybe?
There is no question that most Rabbis who were in damage control mode in the AJN lied. But Oliver did change the Psak. So all have plenty to answer for!
ReplyDeleteThe only non Rabbi is Moishe Elkman. I think he is honest as he does not understand Hebrew although he is planning to take over the Israeli government!
One signature on the infamous psak belongs to the owner of a large Electrical appliance company, who is also the Rabbi for 1 minyan a week! (shaqbbos morning)
ReplyDeleteKnowing Yehoishofot Oliver for several years i beleive he Sincerely THOUGHT he was doing the Rebbes shlichus , he prob. didnt realise minefield he was entering, made some honest mistakes in translation, basically misread situation and thought (still thinks) he made a big kiddush Hashem. Although knowing him as i do it may be dawning upon him about now the tremendous damage and division he has created.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteOliver admits he adapted and wrote the psak.
ReplyDeleteThis was after the original hebrew one from overseas was already signed.
HOW CAN YEHOSHOPHOTS FRIEND CLAIM IT WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE IN TRANSLATION.
BESIDES THE CHANGES WERE NOT IN TRANSLATION RATHER THEY WERE ADDITIONS!
He should be thrown out of Lubavitch
ReplyDeleteyou remember where that statement comes from?!?!?!?!
All this is narishkeit. The adapter of halochos should plug himself into a mashpiah and seek advice on how to rectify his interfernce. Best for him to take on an almost invisible profile. "Yoffoh shtikoh lechachomim, kalvechomer letipshim".This also applies to the other two or three onhangers.I feel for Moshe Elkman as he seems to be dedicated to his ideals.You are making a big metziyus of the others with all this discussion.Genug Shoyn!
ReplyDeleteimagine how many ORANGE scarves I'm gonna get with my $100 win !
ReplyDeleteLook out, I'll be handing them out free near the corner of ORANGE Grove !
To Yehoshophots Friend.
ReplyDeleteYou claim Oliver thought he was doing the Rebbes shlichus but he created tremendius division and damage!
This is exactly what prople are saying when people invent what the Rebbe wants look what happens!
What makes nice guys like the locla orange fanatics act like this?
ReplyDeleteThe dynamics of the mind set of a fanatic is bascially the same irrespective of the ideology or belief system. A fanatic is a person unhealthily obssessed with a pure ideal and convinced of his own unique fate as a chosen saviour.
While the reality on the ground presents the fanatic with a set of facts disputing his preceptions, and while society resoundly rejects and condemns his extreme views, all of this is to no avail. For the fanatic is utterly messianic in his conviction that he is correct and his detractors are wrong, and perhaps even evil, and that he must save the world from themselves.
Herein lies the danger in fanaticsm and why fanatics cannot be reasoned with. How can one reason with a person who believes that his destiny is unique, who sees himself as a legendary hero, as one who is pure while his crtics are tainted?
The fanatic, because he sees himself as chosen and as having a unique destiny, thereby gives himself permission to take liberties with the truth. Their opponents are seen by them as destructive and evil, in contrast to the fanatic who sees himself as pure and the epitomy of all that is good and correct. The fanatic justififies all of his unehtical and anti-halachic actions by telling himself that his unique choseness overrides his obligations to follow the norms.
The fanatic is in the grips of all these uncsoncious forces that compel him to act in irrational ways. He is ego driven. Therefore, the fanatic needs psychological, not ideological, healing.
Before the healing process can be effective, the fanatic must first understand that their unethical behaviour is unacceptable. After that, if he is willing to deflate his ego and listen to others, he may be able to recover from his malady.
A very important first step to healing this situation would be if Yehoshofot and Moshe admitted that they made mistakes. Unfortunately this is not happening and we are being subjected to further vildkkeit such as A moshe for Israeli Prime Minister campaign!!!
ReplyDeleteIf however they announce that they are ready to learn from their mistakes and be more circumspect and consultative in the future then people would probably be more ready to be ready to forgive and maybe even listen to what they have to say. It would be a positive first step in healing the disunity and damage to the cause and to Chabad that they have unfortunately created.
leibel, they are too far gone to admit they made a mistake. They need to get help to overcome the fanatical maind set I described above. The first step would be to admit they need help.
ReplyDeleteI am afraid their vildkite will get wrose before it gets better unless someone in authority clamps down on them and insists they get the help they need, or else!
As a religious person who is against all Oslo concessions, I am still not sure a religious government would solve our problems. In theory, a frum government seems like a great idea however, when one looks at how some of the religious political parties in EY behave, I doubt that a religious government would be much of an improvement. The rampant corruption, autocratic repression of free speech, and the selling out of Torah principles seen among certain religious parties makes me think they could even be,G-d forbid, worse than the secularists. Just look at tbose religious parties that will accept all land giveaways in return for shekalim for their yeshivos. They could care less if the entire country were to be given away, G-d forbid, as long as they get shekalim for the yeshivas. And what about their intolerant, prejudice,attitudes towards the non-frum? If in power, some of these guys would not only ruin the country, but they would create intense animosity against Torah Jews. Until Moshiach comes, perhaps it is better the government stays in the hands of the secularists--at least with them we know what we are dealing with!
ReplyDeleteOnly Moshiach will bring us peace and security.
Dear Shoshana,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your sensible comments on this blog. But please explain to me one thing. You stated that you area against all territorial concessions to the Palestinians. That being the case, what solution can there be to the current situation where Israel rules over 3 million Palestinians in GZ and WB, with hundreds of checkpoints that are often closed, making it impossible for them to travel between Gaza and the West Bank, or to jobs in Israel. Ariel Sharon said himself last week, “Gaza cannot be held onto forever. Over one million Palestinians live there, and they double their numbers with every generation. They live in incredibly cramped refugee camps, in poverty and squalor, in hotbeds of ever-increasing hatred, with no hope whatsoever on the horizon.” If you are against disengagement, what is your alternative? What do you suggest the Israelis do in order to leave peacefully beside the Palestinians?
ittay, I follow the Rebbe's ideas on this. The only solution is a strong military response. Victory is the most decisive and sure road to peace. The IDF could have cleaned out the Gaza years ago and the problem would have been solved.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe said the solution lies not with the polticians wubt with the military experts.
To those people who say war never solved any problems ---war certainly ended Nazism.
sorry for then typos.
ReplyDeleteittay, I follow the Rebbe's ideas on this. The only solution is a strong military response. Victory is the most decisive and sure road to peace. The IDF could have cleaned out the Gaza years ago and the problem would have been solved.
The Rebbe said the solution lies not with the politicians but with the military experts.
To those people who say war never solved any problems ---war certainly ended Nazism.
Yankel,
ReplyDeleteI apologise for for not knowing about Yoshke.When I was at Yeshivah they never taught this subject,so I am unable to quote.
Moishe Chaim,
If you read the blog correctly properly I said yidden say
"Lubavitch is the closest ...".
it is not me personally and this is why it saddens me.I am not a Lubavitch hater and I belong to a Chabad stiebl.
Anonymous,
You are right in that I am not a lubavitcher but I am an einikel of the AR.The fact is 80% of einikel of AR in Australia are not Lubavitchers.
Geze,
You are absolutely correct in saying that Chabad have the numbers in Schochtim,Rabbis of shules,Beis Din,Kiruv etc.I disagree with you that it is due to Chabad,it is virtually all due to Rabbi Groner because he is one of the few Rabbis in Chabad or if not Australia who has the respect of the whole Jewish Community.
You make a statement that the AJN is anti religious,anti chabad.Why is this so,Ask anyone at the AJN the respect they hold for Rabbi Groner.It is not an issue .The point is Chabad as an organisation do not have a good name and the first line always used is that everyone is a Chabad hater.Yidden are not lub-haters.All they ask is that we treat yidden as equal.
Please do not call me honey as this language is an example of where you treat other yidden with contempt.Let us have a rational argument without derogatory statements.
Shoshana, You say “The IDF could have cleaned out the Gaza years ago and the problem would have been solved.” What do you mean by “cleaned”?
ReplyDeleteAs far as a strong military presence goes, I don’t think Israel is exactly going weak on Palestinian terrorism. Israel regularly uses her helicopter gunships and soldiers to kill wanted terrorists, and enforces strict restrictions on who comes and goes into Israel. All the military deterrence’s have not worked. How can you stop someone who wants to kill himself or herself. Last year, Sharon realized the military option was not brining security to Israel. That’s why he decided to disengage.
Wars can be effective, as in the case of Nazsim. But Israel has tried war against the Palestinians, and it has not prevented attacks on Israel, rather, it has increased the conflict. What other solution is there to our problems with the Palestinians other than war?
"Sharon realized the military option was not brining security to Israel. That’s why he decided to disengage."
ReplyDeleteThis is Sharon's mistake. The Rebbe said the only solution is a military one.
Israel has never fought an all out war against terror because she keeps bowing to presure from the US, the UN and the EU who condemn her for doing so. If she would ignore world condemnation and take off her gloves, the problems would be solved within one year or so.
"
ReplyDeleteIsrael has never fought an all out war against terror because she keeps bowing to presure from the US, the UN and the EU who condemn her for doing so. If she would ignore world condemnation and take off her gloves, the problems would be solved within one year"
general shoshana
speaking as an ex idf soldier
they should........
if life was so simlple , shoshana.
the armadale rebbi, hey, no need to denigrate me with your sarcasm.
ReplyDeleteI was asked my opinion and there is only so much one can write on a post on a blog.
I know there are no easy answers. If you disagree with my views, why can't you add something substantive to the discussion instead without the sarcastic personal snipes or are you too ignorant?
I am stating the Rebbe's views as simply and concisely as possible to fit into the forum here,(or esle I get accussed of being too long winded) that in general the Rebbe believed there was no diplomatic solution, only a military one.
time and time again we see Israel capitulate when there is no military reason to do so, only because of diplomatic and politcal pressure.
Appeasement does not work. As Winston Chruchill said (paraphrased)'those who try and appease the crocodile by feeding it may find themselves being eaten by it!"
Back to the psak please.
ReplyDeleteWhat drastic changes were made in the translation that makes Oliver the sheigetz and the rabbis tzaddikim???????
I haven't heard ONE substantial reply to this yet.
We need Rabbis and leaders willing to take a stand on important issues in Israel, they should speak out and tell the public the truth, without fear of losing their jobs or becoming unpopular!
ReplyDeleteI have utmost respect for Rabbi Y. Oliver for his uncompromising views, explaining right from wrong, black from white. The rest of the world wants to compromise, giving a blured picture of grey.
Rabbi Y. Oliver will stand up for Torah and for his principles. From now on, I WILL STAND UP FOR HIM !!! (literally)
yeah, you are so proud of Olvier and sp brave to stand up for him that you cower anonymously behind your keyboard!
ReplyDeletehow could you be a seeker of truth when you hide your identity?
HYPOCRISY ABOUNDS!
I was never hired so I could never be sacked.
ReplyDeleteI was elected to the committee and I quit two days later. Mat Gelman asked me not to, but I quit.
Why did I quit? Because I was disgusted by Elkman's attitude. He was yelling at whoever did not agree with him. He was intolerant of any points of view but his. He was unfocused in his goals. Elkman's little committee of self proclaimed friends of the Gush functioned exactly like a group of high school activists--full of emotion and impulsive, erratic, attention seeking behaviour.
In my view, Elkman showed me that he did not understand Israeli politics or the Rebbe's shittahs. And all of these perceptions have been validated with time.
But even I never dreamed Elkman's campaign would have become as ridiculously out of control, unethical, and scandalous as it has become. At the time I quit the group, I never even imagined they would wind up making such a gigantic Chilul Hashem and Chilul Lubavitch. So, I am extremely happy I quit when I did.
Moreover, Elkman & Co. have no more right to express their opinions publicly than I or anyone else does. If they can spread their opinions all over the press at their own whim, then why can't I or anyone else express ours? Are they the special CHOSEN ones? Of course they are not, unless they are deluding themselves that this is the case! What gives them the right to express their views without opposition?
My views about their radicalism are strong because I love EY and the Rebbe and I cannot stand to watch these irresponsible, sophomoric, people besmirch his name and make a mockery of our cause. I have made my voice heard on this issue because I knew from the start Elkman's group was headed for disaster and wanted to warn people.
Because of Elkman and Co. the entire dialogue with the Jewish community about these issues has never taken place. We have been unable to educate anyone on this issue from the beginning because the general Jewish public has been turned off and disgusted by Elkman and Oliver's shenanigans.
This is what upset me the most---that we lost a golden opportunity to actually explain our point of view to our fellow Melbournite Jews. We lost an excellent opportunity as a community to actually do some good for the people of the Gush. I get upset when I think of all the tzedakah that people would have given to the Gush if Elkman & Co. had not made this issue into the fiasco that it is now. I know because I have gone about educating people about shleimas ha Eretz, and I have gone about collecting funds for the people of the Gush, and people have expressed their disgust with the AFOGKAS and have told me that they identify our entire camp with them now.
Because of Elkman and Co., Chabad is now labeled as a radical organisation of extremists. Because of Elkman & Co. the anti-disengement camp is a laughing stock.
So, yes, I take this personally, because I care about the issues and I care about the Rebbe.
For me this is a machlokes l'shem shamayim!!
Can someone answer me on a article I just read why Lubavich Hassidim are now called Toiter Hassidim ?
ReplyDeleteShalom again Shoshana,
ReplyDeleteBack to your quote “Israel has never fought an all out war against terror because she keeps bowing to pressure from the US, the UN and the EU who condemn her for doing so. If she would ignore world condemnation and take off her gloves, the problems would be solved within one year"
Could Shoshana, or anyone lese for that matter, please explain what “take the gloves off” means. Israel already imposes harsh restrictions on the Palestinians of WB and GZ, including preventing them entry to Israel at will, restricting their vote in Israeli elections, Killing members of terrorist organizations without trials, Making them stand at checkpoints for hours every day, randomly closing roads in GZ / WB, building high walls/fences around Palestinian towns, closing their airport and sea port and bombing the PA offices in response to attacks on Israel.
Israel has done all these things militarily, in order to stop terrorism. But terrorism has only increased in the last 3 years. The harder Israel fights Palestinian terrorism, the more the terrorists fights back. Short of using nuclear weapons(Chas veShalom), what other military option is open to Israel in dealing with the Palestinian threat?
What was the Rebbes Shittahs and where can these be sourced from ?
ReplyDeleteGo to your local Chabad House Rabbi and ask thm to find you the book put out by Yosel Gutnick on Shlaimas HaEretz. Rabbi Arol Serebransky from Merkos should surely have it.
ReplyDeleteSS - Thank you
ReplyDeleteShoshanna, people dont read comments that are longer than the Megillah! You always write stuff that is longer than a Shabbos HaGaddol drasha!
ReplyDeleteWe want a Yes or No answer -
Are you a disgruntled member of AFOGKAS? Yes
Is this your reason for attacks on Elkman & Co? Yes
Thanks for telling the truth!
'We want a Yes or No answer -
ReplyDeleteAre you a disgruntled member of AFOGKAS? Yes
Is this your reason for attacks on Elkman & Co? Yes
Thanks for telling the truth! '
Who is the 'we' in your sentence? Do you represent everyone in the universe?
Yes or no?
Did you read my answer above? Yes or no?
Are you able to understand English? yes or no?
Are you too cowardly to write your name as you make up lies and attack me? yes or no?
is this post short enough for your attention span? yes or no?
shlompy, I actually agreed with the content of your post after I had to decipher it. Please, check your posts with someone who can help you to write legible sentences so that we can actually understand your points because you made some good ones and I would not like to see them get lost..
ReplyDeleteare you all so perfect said:
ReplyDelete"I apologise for for not knowing about Yoshke.When I was at Yeshivah they never taught this subject,so I am unable to quote."
and then went on to say:
"Geze"
Perhaps you are therefore unaware that "Geze" stands for Yoshke and should not be used by a Jew in conversation.
Shlompy,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your response. You are spot on in your assessment that giving
land to the Palestinians has not made the lives of Israelis any safer. That is why, the disengagement from Gaza is unilateral. It is not part of a peace agreement. Ariel Sharon has realized that peace agreements don’t work when your partner is untrustworthy. The process of disengagement is not part of the “land for peace” formula. It is about separation.
Because no agreement can be made between the Israelis and the Palestinians, they must separate. This is exactly what Sharon is doing. He is building an ENOURMOUS SECURITY BARRIER. He is separating Gaza and Sa Nur and Homesh(WB) from Israel this week, in order to create a demographic balance whereby the majority of Jews live on the Israeli side of the barrier, and the majority of the Palestinians live on the Palestinians side.
F.Y.I.
ReplyDelete"GEZE" is the word used for Lubavitcher Chassidim who originate from old Russia. Perhaps there are too many non lubavitchers on this site that we should make a glossary.
Lubavitchers are a strange lot.
ReplyDeleteOne individual Shoshana has the gutts to put her name to who opinion, so you fellows publicly shame her with twisted theories. What is she saying? The same as 95% of people who are too scared to disagree with the fanatics publicly. The fanatics think that this is still Russia.
Honesty, truth and facts don't mean anything anymore. Facts are invented all the time to prop up their militant positions.
How can anyone support the throwing of acid (or deny it)!
How can anyone support the using of Torah scrolls as a shield.
how can anyone support putting babies in the path of danger?
How can anyone support mimicing people in the Holocaust with their hands up as they were being killed just because they were jews?
How can anyone support the use of a shule for cheap political points in front of the world press to damage Israel.
How can anyone support sick people who scream Nazi (and worse) and try to provoke Israeli soldiers whose behaviour truly made us all proud?
These fanatical hooligans are upset that the soldiers did not loose their cool, behaved as proffesional soldiers carrying out their orders effeciently as the wishes of the knesset and the vast majority of Israeli and world jews.
To our militant hooligans go get a life and stop your havoc. If Elkman claims he is going to install a new religous government with his friends and recapture Gush Katif we should put him in a mental assylum.
The Chassidishe yetzer hora comes in a silk kapota and dazzles the fanatical ideologue with his suppossed hailichkite. Filling the ideologue's mind and heart with holy rationales for unholy actions, the yetzer hora whips him into a state self righteous hysteria.
ReplyDeleteI received this response from Rabbi Oliver
ReplyDelete(Please note I am anti disengagement but do not approve of some tactics used by the orange people)
"I doubt you're religious altogether if you can support this reprehensible expulsion, and it's disingenuous of you to pose as a follower of the Rebbe and display your pious concern about my allegedly defaming the name of Chabad"
The Palestinians are about to fulfill a dream. Israel’s pullout from the Gaza Strip next week is but the preface to more withdrawals on the road to a Palestinian state with Jerusalem its capital.
ReplyDeleteSo said the chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas Tuesday, August 9.
Palestinian leaders have every right to the mood of euphoria that Abu Mazen voiced on their behalf.
For without conceding a single point, giving anything in return, setting the Middle East road map in motion - or even starting to crack down on terrorists, the Palestinians will soon be granted:
1. The Gaza Strip rid of every last Jew and Israeli as their exclusive domain.
2. For the first time, they will share an open border with the largest Arab nation, Egypt.
3. A deepwater port over whose shipping traffic Israel will have no control.
4. A territorial link from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank.
There is no doubt that Abu Mazen has done a lot better than the late Arafat who never dreamed of fulfilling so many dreams.
geze!
ReplyDeleteArafat was offered much more but declined. He and you want no peace FROM the Arabs only conflict!
To Whom It May Concern:
ReplyDeleteAlthough I had decided not to post further here due to the horrendous lack of mentchlechkeit and blatant violation of the laws against ono'as devarim displayed by some posters, as I stated then, I will make an exception to post one post (the post posted above in my name was not posted by me), not for those who are so cowardly anonymously attacking me personally (I've decided not to waste my time with them) but for the benefit of those who simply don't know what to think and are liable to accept the various rumours and gossip that have been circulating.
First and foremost, the primary issue in my mind is what the Rebbe said, not one's "personal opinion." I've been making a point of studying his sichos on this matter and everything I've been involved with has been based on them. I have a mashpia with whom I discussed organising and publicising the psak beforehand, and who totally supported it and encouraged it, and himself signed on it. I won't endorse anything contrary to the Rebbe's explicit words, and I certainly won't apologise for following them.
The Rebbe has explicitly called to speak out in protest and influence public opinion concerning the danger of concessions:
"Since dealings in these matters [land concession] in connection with Yehuda and Shomron have arisen in recent days, one must object to this with full force, and awaken public opinion, such that they open their eyes and see the greatness of the danger, G-d forbid, by continuing down this path!
"They just might change their opinion from now on, and stand firm in not conceding any portion of the Land of Israel."
Hisvaduyos 5746, Vol. 1, p. 637
This protest is something that the Rebbe has said should be led by Rabbis:
"...The very fact that there are certain rabbis who issued a rabbinic ruling and sent it to the Israeli government (despite the fact that they knew it would not be effective), is already proof, that this is what needs to be done. This is because inasmuch as they are rabbis they must protest, and they must not be concerned with the notion that they may not be adhered to.
"When the Torah says, "You shall not stand idly by your brother's blood," it does not mean, that you are only required to involve yourself when you are certain that your efforts will be successful. Rather, even if there is only a slim chance — even only the slightest of chances — that you will succeed in your protest being heard, you must do this, for it is the unequivocal ruling of the Code of Jewish Law!
"May it be G-d's will that all those who remain silent (and they are many) finally involve themselves in this issue, since it is easier to deal with an acknowledged opponent, than with someone who remains silent. It is impossible to engage the latter in discussion when he insists on remaining silent: he listens, he hears the arguments, and proceeds to do nothing about it."
Sichos Kodesh, 11 Shvat 5731.
The Rebbe speaks very harshly about Rabbis who fail to protest:
" ... But, as I have emphasized, the matter at hand is not an issue of the sanctity of Land. We are discussing actual threat to life! This is an explicit Halachic ruling: it is forbidden to hand over these territories! Furthermore, when the issue is one of a threat to life, our Sages state this if there is a delay by the Rabbinical authority in taking the initiative in publicizing the danger, they earn the title of "shameful," and more so; the Rabbi himself is deemed to have shed the blood!"
Visit of the Gaon Rabbi Eliezer Yalles, second day Chol Hamoed Pesach 1982.
The Rebbe says that this protest should be sharp (as I made sure the wording of the psak was) and constant, and that such a protest would ultimately succeed:
"In my opinion, the main thing [to be done] now regarding the security situation is to protest in the sharpest manner possible against concessions to all the pressure pertaining to the security situation, which ultimately means that there is no limit to concessions.
"Another important point, in my opinion, perhaps because I am too optimistic, is that if this protest was non-stop and exceedingly sharp, as the situation demands, it would ultimately succeed, and in the near future."
24 Shvat 5741
The Rebbe says that he is speaking out on this issue although he knows from the outset that it will lead to "degradation," and that he "educates others"--i.e., his Chasidim--"not to consider what anyone will say." We believe that this clearly demonstrates that we ought not be deterred by the likes of the AJN and their twisted, hot-air rhetoric. If the Rebbe guides us to follow his example in speaking out openly on this matter, we will surely not suffer from this, and the opposite: we will only be blessed:
"I am not crying out because of a logical assumption that it will help, but simply because it hurts. I know that I will not receive nachas or respect for this, but degradation, etc. But I cannot do otherwise, because it is a clear halacha in Shulchan Aruch that one mustn’t be silent when lives are in danger!
"I was raised on this principle. I was my father’s firstborn, and he was Rav in Yekaterinaslov, so it became my "job" to answer in Russian to the questions and mockeries, etc., that came up then. I was not educated to expect titles of honor, and that is how I continue to educate others – not to remain silent when lives are in danger, not to be impressed by everything they will say about me, and not even to consider the decree of the nations of the world.
Sicha of 20 Av 5739
Some say that Rabonim should not speak out on this matter, because "it will be merachek people from Yiddishkeit." But these sources imply that Rabonim have an obligation to speak out and protest and influence public opinion (which was the intention of arranging the psak) regardless of opposition, i.e., fear of being merachek ba'alei batim should not be a consideration, for this is part of the Rabbi's role. Apparently, the Rebbe considers this public protest a Kiddush Hashem and a Kiddush Shem Lubavitch. Let's not be more concerned for Shem Lubavitch than the Rebbe, and define it by our own opinion, but rather define Kiddush Shem Lubavitch vahafocho according to the Rebbe's explicit statements. (Note the tremendous kiddush Hashem by the AJN reporting after their survey: "most Rabbis against the pullout," something that only came about because of the psak.)
Furthermore, we must publicise the danger even if afterwards so-and-so will relate lashon ha’ra to so-and-so (as has been happening, and this blog is a case in point):
"I hold of the educational approach that when speaking about something having to do with danger to life, you may not be quiet, even when you know that while you speak (or tomorrow, or some time later), so-and-so will relate lashon ha’ra to so-and-so.
"It won’t bother me, and therefore I am not one of those that it harms. What hurts is that afterwards, a Jew comes and says things that never happened. This is not about the prohibition of, “lo sichanem” (do not allow the goy to reside in the land) or the like, but pikuach nefesh!
"So that people should not err, they said and reiterated and wrote and printed and publicized and asked that all who are interested should publicize this – that in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim, Hilchos Shabbos, siman 329, it speaks clearly about this. Yet despite this, it has no effect; he didn’t “get” it, since he is bribed!
"As I said before, this is what I learned in my childhood. I don’t say I take pleasure in this, and it’s exactly the same feeling when they speak of me honorably as when they speak the opposite way, but I’m not going to change! I’m not about to change the approach which was paved for me by my father [R’ Levi Yitzchok] and teacher and father-in-law [Rebbe Rayatz], which is to ignore that which is the opposite of honor, and to ignore even a decree of the nations of the world!"
20 Av 5739
The Rebbe WANTS this message publicised, and we must protest even if we know from the outset that it will entail monetary loss to our institutions due to vehement opposition:
"Although this is the protest of an individual, since it takes place in the presence of other Jews, it will certainly be heard via telephone in a number of places. And since people will hear this, they will surely react...
"Since there are teachers who need to receive a salary, and therefore need aid and various kinds of support, they made it so that these teachers have a difficult time receiving their salaries, or only part of their salaries, because I protest that they should not give back an inch of land to the Arabs…
"His goal is seemingly to cause me to stop talking about this, but he is doing this despite the fact that he knows that it won’t be effective, and he will not accomplish anything by withholding money. How does he know that I am not frightened by this? Since this isn’t the first time this has happened…"
Shabbos Parshas BaMidbar 5739
On the contrary, the Rebbe says here that standing by one's principles commands respect:
"Even amongst American youth, greater respect has recently been shown to those who stand firm in their opinion and are not ashamed of those who scoff at them and their world-view. Conversely, those whose emotional instability causes them to blindly follow the majority are ridiculed."
Likutei Sichos, Vol. 13, p. 187.
Ad kan quotes from Divrei HaRav. If anyone thinks that these sources are quoted out of context, or misunderstood, or the like, please contact me, and I would be glad to discuss the matter. If anyone disagrees with my understanding, the onus of proof lies on them to explain why--quoting sources, not "I said so."
In any case according to this, the Rabbis, and all Jews, must proudly fulfil their Torah duty to protest and "publicize the danger," and adhere to the beginning of the Shulchan Aruch, "Not to be ashamed before the scoffers."
(This was indeed signed into Dvar Havaye Zu Halacha in the psak in both the English and the Hebrew: "We call on all Rabbis and all Jews to join us in openly condemning this ... " And regardless of the psak, the Rebbe said this many times, but the psak strengthens it, for the Rebbe said that a psak has a physical effect on the world.)
This is especially necessary as the Israeli government is planning yet more flight and expulsion, G-d forbid. Thus, I have nothing to apologise for; I did my best to publicise the message of Shulchan Aruch and the Rebbe. I don't apologise for not realising the sneaky distortions that the AJN would make; the fact is that they would have become upset regardless of whether it had said this or that loshon, because we're daring to question the secular state--which is the worst sin in their book. Rabbi Groner signed on the English, and surely read what he signed. He is the Mora De'Asra, and knew that it would be publicised, and so the content itself was surely correct in Halacha, and correct to publicise. If anyone disagrees with that, let him take it up with R' Groner.
As for the fact that the words "not to participate"--in the Hebrew as well--may imply a call to refuse orders, something that allegedly the Rebbe didn't say and so perhaps we should also omit to say:
1) If that really bothered the signatories, then they should have refused to sign! If they didn't notice it, then it's irresponsible of them to sign on something they haven't thoroughly read--which is certainly not something for which any member of our group is to blame.
2) Now that they DID sign, they should at least take responsibility for the text as is. Furthermore, it is absurd to write to the Jewish News and retract something which is anyway true al pi halocho--ain shliach ledevar aveira, and the Chief Rabbis Mordechai Eliyahu and Rav Shapira and others in Eretz Yisra'el have paskened so here: http://www.seruv.co.il Additionally, it gave the impression that they do not agree with the psak as a whole, or the need to speak out on the grave danger, and this retraction was thus a tremendous chillul Hashem. If anything, what's necessary is MORE articles describing the tremendous prohibition and danger, as based on the Rebbe's sichos, something that's been sorely lacking--and which motivated Mr. Elkman's and my initiative in the first place. How can they say, in effect, "we don't agree with the expulsion, but we are opposed to those who are openly opposed to it?" We would never speak out on such a "divisive" issue, eyeroll. Anyone reading it would walk away thinking one thing—the expulsion must not be so terrible, if the Rabbis aren't speaking out against it, and are even repudiating such statements. Silence is consent, and it's all the worse since this is a matter of pikuach nefesh to 5 million Jews, ch"v! Instead of fulfilling their duty to courageously speak out and not be ashamed of the scoffers, 2 Rabbis who DID sign on a psak of the same content (granted, in Hebrew) have retracted it and demonise those who have had the courage to publicise Shulchan Aruch's and the Rebbe's words!
3) If even the Rebbe's omission of calling to refusal is so significant, which I grant is quite possible, then surely (since proofs from omission are logically weak) what he explicitly DID say should be followed with at least as much devotion. The current plague of so loyally standing by the implication of an omission but completely failing to publicise the Rebbe's explicit words on this matter and follow his instructions on this matter, viz., constant protest that according to Halacha this is a matter of pikuach nefesh to 5 million Jews, ch"v, is absurd.
As for the differences between the original psak of the Rabonim in Eretz Yisra'el and one I adapted, there was no intention to claim that that text was identical to the psak of Eretz Yisra'el. In the Hebrew that they signed, it says clearly that it's mevusas--BASED on that one, not identical to it. And I would have been happy to explain that to anyone who had asked me. It's really beside the point, because the Rabonim chose to sign on it, and they must take responsibility for what they signed.
What I find odd and saddening is that though all these people find it necessary to attack me in public, not one of them has approached me to ask me my "side," but just accepted loshon horo. They could call me; I think my ph. no. is in the Neshei List. They could approach me in shul. On 1 occasion I even overheard people discussing the matter, and they were fully aware that I was sitting right near them, and they didn't bother to approach me! Only 2 community members have gone to the trouble to approach me and discuss it with me, aside from family members. Mr. Elkman reports to me as well that although the entire community is talking about this psak, only a handful of people actually approached him to hear his "side" (Mr. G in particular didn't approach him before writing his letter to the AJN). So much for intellectual honesty.
Some, who signed on the Hebrew version, claim that 1) the English version was a mistranslation of the Hebrew version; 2) that the Hebrew version that many signed was worded as a petition, unlike the English version, which was worded as a Halachic ruling.
These claims are fundamentally inaccurate:
1) Although the two versions are indeed not completely identical, the differences are trivial: a) in the English, "Israel's neighbours" and "the Arabs" are substituted with "Israel's enemies"—a change the AJN insisted on in order to allow publication; b) the original edited version replaced the words "suicidal surrender" with "terrible disengagement." The printer, instead of correcting those words, changed the wording of the next line from "terrible decree" to "terrible disengagement,"—leaving the expression "suicidal surrender." This was simply a mistake and an oversight—one for which we apologise—but not a "deception." In any case, these slight differences do not change the relevant content of the ruling: a declaration of the Halachic prohibition of conceding land to terrorists, plain and simple.
2) The Hebrew version is not worded as a petition, as was claimed, but as a Halachic ruling, as is apparent to anyone familiar with Hebrew.
The original Hebrew was released, and everyone is free to compare it with the original English from which it was translated and judge for themselves whether "deception" was done. The purpose of the "spot the difference," for those who didn't "get" it, is to make the point that the differences are trivial and the content is identical. No one denies that they signed the Hebrew, but 1 or 2 people are claiming that they were totally misrepresented, and this is untrue. This allegation of "deception" is nothing but a transparent pretext to discredit those who have proudly stood up for Torah's and the Rebbe's principles.
My role was writing it; once it was written, it was out of my hands. It was then translated into Hebrew, something for which I was not responsible. (Ironically enough, the main person involved in that translation was Shaul Gurevitch.) I was not asked to compare the final version of the English to the Hebrew. I did not collect signatures for it (though I'd have been happy to), and I do not endorse the fact that the signatories were not explicitly told that the psak would be printed in the AJN. I also wasn't involved with the presentation of the psak to the AJN, and the minute changes that the AJN insisted on making.
I express my sorrow that certain people have not proudly stood by and publicly defended timeless words of Jewish Law related to the most overriding of all Halachic imperatives, that of protecting Jewish life, that they themselves signed—albeit in the Hebrew. Instead, they have repudiated Torah law! I applaud Rabbi Yurkovitch for fulfilling the directive of "you shall fear no man" and standing firmly by the halachic ruling despite left-wing intimidation, and similarly applaud any others who did so who were not brought to my attention.
Perhaps the psak wasn't done in the most ideal way, but that begs the question to all the critics: "If you're so expert at how such things should be done, where were you and where are you? What are you actually doing to protest? If you're doing SOMEthing, then your criticism is worthy of my respect, (although at the end I may still disagree). If not, not."
Again, I did not collect the signatures. But I will repeat what the one who did collect them has to say. I cannot apologise on his behalf. He says: "It is true that although some of the rabbis were explicitly told that this ruling was intended to be publicised, not all were. This was simply a misunderstanding—not deliberate trickery, as the gossip about us has circulated. We had given them the credit and assumed that the rabbis, considering their role as leaders, would be only too happy to have critical timely matters of Jewish law approved with their signatures publicised in their names, and had considered it self-evident that this was the purpose of collecting the signatures in the first place. We are baffled as to what other purpose it could have had. Sadly, this was a mistaken assumption." Again, that's his position vis a vis his actions, in which I was not involved, so even if you disagree, it is absurd to yell at me about it. He says that many asked what it was for, and he responded, "to publicise." Some didn't ask him at all. He certainly didn't intend to hide the English version; he went around collecting the signatures with the Hebrew and the English stapled together. Some signed on the English, but for some reason, most on the Hebrew. It is possible that some didn't realise that the English version was there underneath the Hebrew, but certainly had no intention of concealing the English version from anyone. That's his position, and if you disagree, you are free to take it up with him.
I will not be looking at this blog page again, so those who would have derived sick pleasure from screaming at me and using foul language, as in the past, can know from the outset that they're wasting their time (aside from the fact that Hashem is watching). If anyone is unsatisfied with my response here and genuinely wishes to discuss the matter with me further and present their case, quoting sources, of that which they believe the Rebbe wants (which is what anyone with an ounce of mentchlechkeit would have done from the outset), then I invite them to call me on 9525 8047, or approach me in Shul, and as long as they speak to me respectfully, I would be only too happy to listen to their thoughts and have a meaningful discussion.
Another important point: Speaking out on the danger ch"v is not "the Rebbe's shita," and a matter of loyalty to the Rebbe. It's an open halacha in Shulchan Aruch, unrelated to one's identity as a Chabadnik; indeed, I've discussed it with many non-Lubavitchers who don't necessarily follow every instruction of the Rebbe, but accept his opinion on this matter because in fact it's simple Shulchan Aruch. It's just that the Rebbe called our attention to this halocho, which otherwise might have gone unnoticed--unlike those who seem to want to hide it!
I also wish to add that it appears that numerous non-Lubavitchers have been reading this blog (in fact, it was a member of Adass who alerted me to the fact that I'm being publicly defamed here). Perhaps those who do call themselves Chasidim (though one never knows with blogs who's who) should bear this in mind and control their coarse language--if only for that reason.
Rabbi Oliver,thank you for your responses but do you have write a sefer every time.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you bother with this blog , when everyone is out to get you.You and MK mean well and are sincere,but the Australian illness has been spreading
amongst the community.How do you cure tall poppy syndrome.
At least you do not hide your name.
'First and foremost, the primary issue in my mind is what the Rebbe said, not one's "personal opinion." I've been making a point of studying his sichos on this matter and everything I've been involved with has been based on them. I have a mashpia with whom I discussed organising and publicising the psak beforehand, and who totally supported it and encouraged it, and himself signed on it. I won't endorse anything contrary to the Rebbe's explicit words, and I certainly won't apologise for following them'
ReplyDeleteThis is what makes Oliver a fanatic-he simply does not recognize that there are other much more learned Rabbonim than himself who have a different interpretation of the Rebbe's sichos. The only opinion that counts is his--pure egotisim.
"If you're so expert at how such things should be done, where were you and where are you? What are you actually doing to protest? If you're doing SOMEthing, then your criticism is worthy of my respect, (although at the end I may still disagree). If not, not."
The self righteousness of the fanatical mind is most apparent with this statment. Because he is somehow superior or chosen he has a right to an opinon while others do not.
"This was simply a misunderstanding—not deliberate trickery, as the gossip about us has circulated. We had given them the credit and assumed that the rabbis, considering their role as leaders, would be only too happy to have critical timely matters of Jewish law approved with their signatures publicised in their names, and had considered it self-evident that this was the purpose of collecting the signatures in the first place. We are baffled as to what other purpose it could have had. Sadly, this was a mistaken assumption."
Their presumptous, rooted in their self inflated view of themselves as the chosen special ones on a mission, is also a sign of the fanatcial mind set. They decided what all those Rabbis and teachers would be thinking.
"He certainly didn't intend to hide the English version; he went around collecting the signatures with the Hebrew and the English stapled together. Some signed on the English, but for some reason, most on the Hebrew. It is possible that some didn't realise that the English version was there underneath the Hebrew, but certainly had no intention of concealing the English version from anyone."
Nebach on the Rabbis and teachers who trusted Moshe Elkman, who wold not have believed the he would be handing them two different versions. It is quite possible that in thier fanatcial minds they believe the lies they tell. Often people convince themselves of thier own fabrications. These guys need help.
And who is Oliver to decide who is a religious Jew or not? Who is Oliver to decide who is a chosid or not? How arrogant is this?
ReplyDeleteNeither Oliver nor Elkman feel any remorse or regret for what they have done. This non-recognition of the wrongess of their actions, and Oliver's stance that he is still correct, even though 98% of the society involved in this tell him he is wring, is another sign of the fanatical mind. The world tells the fanatic that he is mistaken and the fanatic tells the world that he, the fanatic, still knows better.
Fifteen years ago in Chabad we never had fanatics running around and taking centre stage like they do now. I did not sign up for a radical movement. The Rebbe was not a radical, G-d forbid. Now, we have fringe people hijacking the Chabad name and defaming not only all of us, but the Rebbe too, while the so-called Rabbinic leadership are impotent to stop them.
I feel I must keep writing to show the public that we Chabadniks are not like Oliver and ELkman.I feel that normal level headed Chabadniks like myself must be heard over the din of these irrational wannabes who twist the Rebbe's words and agenda to suit themselves.
That is partly why I put letters in the AJN and part of the reason I write on this blog--I want people to know that ther are other Chabadniks out there who are not liars, are not fanatical, and are not dividers of Jews. Elkman and especailly Oliver do not represent me, the Chabad movement or the Rebbe!
Just a few thoughts came to me as I was getting ready for work:
ReplyDeleteOliver believes that whoever does not protest in the exact way that he protests, then they are not doing anything about the situation in EY. From reading his comment I glean that he does not recognize any other form of protest as being one the Rebbe would approve of.
As my Rabbi pointed out to me, the Rebbe said we must protest, but the question is how? The Rebbe certainly wanted us to educate people, to speak to those with inlfuence in the policy making of EY, but my Rabbi does not believe the Rebbe meant Oliver's form of protest was acceptable.
The mind of the fanatic can only accept the possibilty of his interpretations as being the only correct ones. The mind of the fanatic interprets any opinons contrary to his own as an attack on himself, and in this case the Rebbe. That is because the ego and the emotions of the fanatic are driving his thinking making it muddled. To the fanatic things are black and white--you are with him or against him. To Oliver either you join him in his mode of protest and his opinions regrading the Rebbe's sichos, or you are not protesting at all, are not a chosid, are not even a religious Jew if you dare take issue with him or his actions.
Just heard from a very relaible source, a witness, that Moshe Elkman did not give the Rabbis two versions to sign, as Oliver claims. This witness saw Moshe hand several Rabbis and teachers one version only in Hebrew when they signed.
ReplyDeletea witness?
ReplyDeleteyou need 2
Instead of poking fun, could someone please explain exactly what changes they think the English version contains, and why those changes are at all significant. If there is a rabbi out there who signed the Hebrew version but claims he would not have signed the English version had he bothered to read it, let him point out exactly which words in the English he objects to, and show that those words do not appear in the Hebrew. And if there is indeed a rabbi who claims that he signed something that is headed keviat pesak, but didn't realise it was a pesak, or didn't realise it would be publicised, then I have no hesitation in calling that rabbi a liar. What did anybody think the pesak was for? For ME to frame and hang on his wall? The rabbis signed it because it is a statement of the halacha as the LR taught, and because the LR, while he was alive, explicity demanded that rabbis should sign such pesakim.
ReplyDeleteThe only difference I could spot between the two versions, that seems of any significance whatsoever, is that the Hebrew version says it is forbidden to implement or participate in the pullout, while the English version added that it is also forbidden to "endorse" it. But if that is indeed someone's objection, I'd like to hear them explain how it is permitted to endorse an act that is itself forbidden.
The English version is an adaptation, not a strict translation. It says so, right in the text. But both versions accurately reflect the LR's position which he repeated time and again. If someone thinks there is a single thing in the pesak - either version - which is inconsistent with a single sicha or statement of the LR, I'd like them to point it out.
I may not remember to check this thread again, so please CC any answers to me at milhouse.blogger@gmail.com
you need 2 wintesses for a Din Torah, this is not a din Torah but a discussion. I know of several witnesses but only spoke to one this morning.
ReplyDeleteYehoshofot Oliver has (once again) treated us to a list of quotations from the Rebbe in an attempt to detract from and gloss over criticism of his and his friends regretable actions. These have all been quoted before and we all are well aware of the Rebbe's opinion on "land for peace" and his call to highlight the dangers involved.
ReplyDeleteI have discussed these issue with a number of the Rabbis concerned and have to comment that Oliver still hasn't explained the following points:
1. Why didn't he simply circulate and get signatures on the original psak formulated by the three hundred Rabbis? Why did he audaciously "adapt" the psak of the three hundred learned Rabbis? Was this excercise in self agrandisement because their language and conclusions weren't controversial or militant enough for he and his radical friends? He cannot so easily shake off repsonsibily for the negative results of his actions in this regard.
2. He has not justified or explained why he was party to the subterfuge of lifting signatures from the Hebrew document onto a different English document. He merely handballs the blame to another without having the decency to admit that it was subterfuge. He thereby implies that he doesn't believe it was wrong!
3. With what chutzpah does he charge the offended rabbis with repudiating Jewish law? Because they defended themselves from misrepresentation? The explanatory comments of the Rabbis concerned specifically confirmed that they maintained the psak against the disengagement. They were only, quite correctly, distancing themselves from some of the more militant interpretations that were implied by the changes in wording and tone of the published final version.
4. Finally, he justifies his actions by saying that he has consulted with his mashpia regarding all his actions. I don't know who his mashpiah is but reliable word has it that both Rabbi Groner snr and Yossel Gutnick (probably the two most credentialled spokesmen to speak on behalf of Lubavitch on these matters) have taken Moshe Elkman to task on this and other issues regarding their unauthorised and unilateral local campaign. Yossel Gutnick in particualr is reported to be livid with the fact that the psak was publicised in the manner it was is the AJN. To quote their words however "it was in one ear and out the other".
As long as Oliver and his friends refuse to recognise the errors of their ways and the need to consult and spread the message bedarkei noam and bedarkei sholom (as the Rebbe taught us) then he has noone other than himself to blame for the lack of success of his efforts and for the criticism and damage caused to the issue he is trying to promote and to his own credibility in general.
milhouse - In answer to your questions I quote from my post many days ago -
ReplyDelete"In any event I quickly found seven differences - at least two of them pretty MAJOR. One changes the Shulcahn Aruch's psak that talks about resisting "Akum" that come agianst a jewish city to the word "maurauders" who come to fight Jews - so that the whole psak now could be (and was) interpreted as being a call for civil disobedience by saying it is a mitzvah (worthy of even Shabbat desecration)to take up arms and fight against the TZAVA AND POLICE who are involved in disposessing the settlers. The other six were additions added in the text that significantly raised the militancy and rhetoric of the English version over the Hebrew (adding words such as calling the disengagement "perilous' and "suicidal surrender" .
So it looks like the rabbis were right when they claimed that they had been misrepresented by having their signatures lifted from the Hebrew version to the English version"
Originally Oliver wrote he is very proud of his collegues who signed his Psak.
ReplyDeleteNow he writes these same 33 chabad rabbis are repudiating jewish law.
This is all too confusing for me.
Just an aditional point to milhouse:
ReplyDeleteThe published English psak also includes the words that it is ossur to participate in the disengagemment. This is an obvious instruction to soldiers to have to disobey orders.
This issue or psak was NOT in the original psak signed by the three hundred rabbis nor have I ever seen anything from the Rebbe even implying such a "psak".
(It was indeed this point that caused the major criticism against chabad and the rabbis. NOT the opinion against giving back land - that in itself could not be criticised as many members of the Knesset hold that opinion as well!
This extra "psak" about "siruv pekudah" (disobeying orders) was added by Oliver and does not represent the opoinion of the three hundred rabbis quoted nor, as far as I know, does it represent the view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
This is a major change introduced by our local radicals that fired up the crtiticism and that they must take responsibility for!
If the 33 local Rabbis/Teachers etc, knew that Elkman and Oliver are involved and they still signed what right have they got to cry now.
ReplyDeleteWhat did they expect?
A question: why do so many of my fellow BT's have a penchant towards radicalism?
ReplyDeleteSometimes I wonde-- if some of the radicalized BT's did not wind up in Chabad, maybe they could have easily wound up in a cult.
I know we BT's tend to be truth seekers, idealistic, sensitive and intense. Is that the reason
why we have a tendency towards radical ideas? Or is it that their mashpiam and shluchim have not given them enough solid education to avoid the pitfalls of falling into extremist positions?
Too little knowledge is a dangerous things. Perhpas that is the reason why so many of my fellow BT's are the first to repeat the most radical of slogans and ideals. Perhaps it is because their learning on a particular topic is superficial, and not grounded, and the result is that their responses to weighty issues are often knee-jerk, highly emotional, and not well thought out.
Perhaps it is because too many of my fellow BT's abide by what I call "feel good Judaism", in which the Torah is used as a panacea for their emotional angst. In "feel-good Judaism" the Torah and its precepts are used to assuage one's boredom, guilt, or depression.
Why do so mnay of my fellow BT"s like black and white interpretations and seem to lack the ability to engage in nuanced
thinking? Is it because the black and white pat answers give them a false sense of security? is their 'feel-good Judaism" functioning like a drug induced euphoria, freeing them from the anxiety of critical analysis, independent thinking, or making difficult choices?
People can criticse me for expressing my opinions if they like, but G-d gave me the ability to think and write, and I use it to probe and inspire. I think those who do not like my outspokeness fall into a couple of catagories: 1) those who have an agenda and do not like my exposing ofit 2) those who are uncomfotable with a baalas teshvuah asking the probing questions about important issues they would rather avoid. They would rather a woman just be quiet and compliant. If I were a man they would not be showing as much hostility towards me. By the same token, if Moshe Elkman and Oliver were female, they would have been crucified by now. But because they are men, 'the good old boys network' protects them from being responsible for the damage they did.
Those who attack the person and not the isses are those who cannot answer the issues, who feel cornered and lack a viable excuse, so they resort to personal attacks.
I have a right to air my views, which by the way, most people agree with. I believe the silent majority is on my side.
-----Original Message-----
ReplyDeleteFrom: Moshe Elkman [mailto:thecoatman@yahoo.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 23 August 2005 9:36 AM
To: Moshe Elkman
Subject: How can we be quiet?
Dear Friends,
The penny is now dropping.
forward to EVERYONE , media, politicians etc.
Jewish Refugee Fund
Why are comments about shoshana silcove kosher but about Elkman treif?
ReplyDeleteI am suprised any one can support a call to promote to politicians and to the media anti semitic nonsence that Israel creates refugees.
Israel is the only country that takes in Jewish refugees at enormous costs from any where in the world.
It is a sad day when I need to defend Israels track record with refugees from fellow chassidim!
Oliver was complaining at Mizrachi that we don't defend Gush Katif. How can anyone join anti zionists like you fellows.
ReplyDeleteBecause Sharon did not do the right thing, you fanatics have sold out Israel.
What would your Rebbe say?
I don't like hypocrites.
another analyst said...
ReplyDeletemilhouse - In answer to your questions I quote from my post many days ago -
"In any event I quickly found seven differences - at least two of them pretty MAJOR. ....So it looks like the rabbis were right when they claimed that they had been misrepresented by having their signatures lifted from the Hebrew version to the English version"
>>>>>
Absolute nonsense.
The "rabbis" would have copped the same flack from the AJN and their freyer baaleibattim even if those changes were not made at all.
The 'rabbis' know this VERY well, but are using this naarishkeit as if they were mislead. Poor Elkman and Oliver are being made scapegoats so these rabbis can make a wek excuse for their thoughtlessness.
Lemaaseh the changes are tiny and definitely not a reason to accuse Oliver and co of defrausing these great men.
They should be ashamed of themselves that 1) that had no inititiative themsleves to help our brethren in GUsh Katif and 2) that when the googa hit the fan they tried to pass it on to E and O.
But the vast majority of people here are not fooled/
And NO KUDOS at all to the rabbis who didn't sign eg M Gutnick and Y Barber. These so-called chassidim of our holy rebbe did nothing towards his holy cause. One day when they face him, they will be VERY embarrased.
sickenned said...
ReplyDeleteThis is getting sicker by the day.
The whole purpose of this campaign and the name "Refugee" is to prove to the world that the palestinians are right and the zionists create REFUGEES.
>>>
You are obviously not a Chabad chassid.
The rebbe was an ish emmess and only wanted emmess from us. Shekker is for goyim - not jews.
If the zionists create refugees then THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE CALLED!!!
8000 people are now displaced and dispossesed in hovels fleabag hotels and caravans. These dedicated people of whom many were followers of our rebbe are now homeless - yes - refugees.
Sad - but true.
Erez from Mizrachi said...
ReplyDeleteOliver was complaining at Mizrachi that we don't defend Gush Katif. How can anyone join anti zionists like you fellows.
>>>
I don't know your position in Mizrachi, but if they were true to their ideals then they would be having a shabbos honoring Olivewr and Elkman. Yes these 2 people almost singlehandedly did the hard and dirty work that the sttlers of Gush katif who are your sould-brothers would have expcted from Mizrachi/Bnei Akiva here in Melb.
But what do we find? nothing! shah shtil! lets not get involved even if out brothers are being thrown out of their homes like dogs.
Let O and E spend the time and money to make a shturm and hopefully they will find a few Lubavitchers to help. meanwhile we Mizrachi people will sit comfortably in front of our televisions and quitely grumble watching the way israeli soldiers treat the best and most noble people in our religious zionist world.
Mizrachi Melbourne wins its 1st international award. For doing the least of any Mizrachi community in the world to help the refugees of GK>
Because Sharon did not do the right thing, you fanatics have sold out Israel.
What would your Rebbe say?
I don't like hypocrites.
To no lies please!
ReplyDeleteYou call yourself a chabad chosid because you claim that anyone who follows the oxford and collins dictionary are goyim.
A refugee is someone who escaped and is in danger if found and is being pursued or has fled a famine. These settlers were re settled. I do not agree with the disengagement, but after certain fanatics have fe'chazered the name of chabad they are now trying to dirty (fe'chazer) the name and reputation of Israel. Lies are being fabricated to inform the media and politicians in Australia that Israel creates refugees. (a claim by all anti semitic arabs for more than 50 years!) so to lie in order to defame Israel and speak Loshon Hora on our land same as the Meraglim did makes you feel that you can call anyone who doesn't agree GOYIM makes me proud of you!
According to NO LIES PLEASE, 99% of Chassidim are goyim as they all have said some un truths.
ReplyDeleteIs the derech of Chabad to make Jews into Goyim?
Is the derech of Chabad to spread untruths about Israel to the Goyim?
Is the derech of Chabad to talk Loshon Hora about Eretz Yisrael?
Is the derech of Chabad to reinforce the claims made by our enemies (Yishmael)?
Is the derech of Chabad to lie that 8,000 people are homeless?
So who says the lies and who are Goyim?
No jew is a goy according to the Rebbe that you pretend to follow. Make the Rebbe a favour and deny that you belong to chabad.
You are an embarrassment to a great leader.
please don't talk in the name of the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteIt is utter nonsence and scandalous to suggest the Rebbe would want us to speak loshon hora and defame Israel in the foreign press etc. even if true- but here we are talking about blatant lies.
Refugees is a myth copied from the Arab propoganda machine!
According to Rabbi Y.D. Groner it is Ossur according to Halacha to speak negativly about Israel to a goy.
Sarah Nechamah
ReplyDeletemy taina to you as to oliver elkman and the others is not that you have misunderstood the Rebbes approach, heck most of these orangistin never even met the rebbe and are unfimiliar with the languages that the Rebbe communicated his teachings in.
Its that you preach this corrupted view of the rebbes shitos publicly (possibly because such interpretattions appeal to your charachter) Your slanderous comments about Rabbonim etc (who incidentlly did receive tremendous kiruvim from the Rebbe and do speak the language of the sichos and farbrangens)betray your sinah hate and violence which you try to substantiate from the Rebbes teachings.
As somone who was fortunate enough to spend many years in the Rebbes Svivah, i feel its my responsibilty to make a Machaah Nimretzes and to announce these most obvious words: The Rebbe was not a leader of hate violance anger and pirud. He was an ish emes an ish shalom and brought jews together.
To shlompy G. Is shame mizrachi your new name?
ReplyDeleteMAZEL TOV!
TO MENDEL S.
ReplyDeleteIS IT TRUE THAT THE REBBE HELD ANYONE WHO HAS A DIFFERENT VIEW TO "FANATICAL ISRAEL HATERS" ARE GOYIM, AS CLAIMED?
"sarah nechama" and "no lies please" are the same person - can tell by the fanatical rambling lack of cohesion (eg excesive use of capital letters qnd multiple exclamation marks)corruption of rebbes words etc.
ReplyDeleteWHY DON'T THE ORANGE PEOPLE AND HAMAS UNITE?
ReplyDeleteThey spread the same propoganda.
Both burn Israeli flags.
Both throw rocks at Israeli soldiers.
Both claim religion is on their side!
Both don't accept any view but their own.
The only problem is that the new colour will need to be a striped orange/green!
Zalman, the rebbe was the biggest advocate of "af al pi shechoto yisroel hu" he even tried to be limud zchus publicly regarding members of knesset that actively sought to give away land to the arabs Rachmono litzlan.
ReplyDeleteyes even Ariel Sharon is a Yid, "lo yidcah memenu nidach". Lets hope he does teshuvah along with rest of us and hasten the coming of moshiach
Why do we all need to get so excited over 2-3 fanatical meshugoim???
ReplyDeleteEvery normal person knows that Israel takes in refugees and the Rebbe would vomit on the anti Israel/Jewish hype.
The best is to ignore these crazies, they love attention.
To mendel s.
ReplyDeleteIt's a breathe of fresh air to read some real Lubavitch principles instead of all the sina!
Last protesters vex soldiers in Homesh
ReplyDeleteBy David Ratner
Troops were clearing the final pockets of protesters from the northern West Bank settlement of Homesh late Tuesday afternoon.
A settler was arrested Tuesday afternoon in Homesh after attempting to stab an Israel Defense Forces soldier with a knife. The attempted stabbing took place ahead of security forces' raid of the Har Shalom Yeshiva in Homesh.
Five security forces personnel were lightly wounded in Homesh, including a soldier hit by a stone a pullout opponent threw at him. Protesters also threw paint, ketchup, flour and cooking oil at the forces. In addition to the alleged stabber, two other protesters were also arrested in Homesh on Tuesday.
Troops raided the yeshiva Tuesday afternoon and forcibly removed the protesters after carrying out tables and religious books. The protesters were sitting on the floor and praying when the troops entered the building, and security forces initially walked around them to remove the objects inside. Soldiers were dissapointed that religious articles should be used for political purposes.
Earlier, the troops surrounded the building and removed furniture near the door. The protesters stacked up cans of food in an effort to block a door and threw hot oil at the troops through a window.
A Homesh resident who lives near the yeshiva set his home alight, Army Radio reported.
The officers held up shields and broke through coils of barbed wire with wire cutters. The protesters sat in a cluster, locking arms and chanting, as troops tore down tarpaulin.
Pullout opponents, reportedly including 70 settlers from the West Bank settlement of Yitzhar, barricaded themselves in several buildings Tuesday morning, taking over vacated homes and draping them in razor wire. Police also negotiated with a woman who locked herself in her house with her children and was refusing to leave.
Also Tuesday, security forces began forcibly evacuating about 40 teens holed up in a two-story house in Homesh. Some of them resisted the troops and threw acid and paint at them, some hid inside tires, and others fainted and received medical treatment from the soldiers.
Youths set alight tires, garbage containers and Israeli flags in the morning. Protesters also poured oil on approach routes, which military bulldozers later covered up with sand, due to the hazard.
Security forces estimated Tuesday morning there were about 1,200 people in Homesh. At least some are thought to be armed.
The officer supervising the Homesh evacuation - the head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yair Naveh - said the protesters had "internalized the evacuation."
But Police Commissioner Moshe Karadi said Tuesday that "we must be cautious with our optimism" regarding a peaceful evacuation.
On Monday evening, some 35 families held a farewell ceremony in Homesh and left before security forces began evacuating the settlement.Apparently thet were threatened by some protesters not to leave peacfully.
"Another Analyst": The translation of "akum" as "marauders" is certainly correct - how else would you translate it for an English-speaking audience that is unfamiliar with the original gemara?
ReplyDeleteAs for your suggestion that this could be read as a reference to Tzahal, it takes a devious mind to make such a leap. The English version - unlike the Hebrew - supplies the reason the gemara gives for this law (readers of the Hebrew version are assumed to already be familiar with it). The English version specifies explicitly that this law applies to "a border town" (another point that the Hebrew version omits, assuming that the reader already knows it), and explains "for otherwise the entire land will be easy for them to conquer". It goes on to make the point that the yishuvim that were destroyed were "not merely close to Israel's threatened borders - they themselves constitute[d] the borders". Given this context, the only conclusion an honest reader could come to is that the "marauders" referred to are people outside the borders, whose conquest of the border town might enable them to invade the country that town protects. No honest reader could possibly understand this as a reference to Tzahal, which already controls the whole country, and has no need to "conquer" it, let alone to take down some yishuvim in order to facilitate such a conquest.
"Perilous" is not in the Hebrew version, but it is not a significant change. The English version does not claim to be a strict translation, and the gist of the Hebrew version certainly supports the idea that the withdrawal is indeed perilous. As for "suicidal surrender", YO has already explained that this was to be omitted, and the failure to do so was the fault of the AJN printer.
"Neutral Analyst": The prohibition against participating is in the Hebrew version as well. Kemo ken asur lehishtatef betochnit zo. That is what the 33 rabbis signed, and none of them can honestly deny it. The English version did add a prohibition against "endorsing" it, but I fail to see how any of the rabbis can claim that, having signed a ban against participating, they would have refused to sign had they noticed this addition. I don't see the relevance of your claim that it doesn't appear in the pesak of the 300 rabbis, on which this pesak was based. The 33 local rabbis did not sign that Israeli pesak, they signed this one, which does not in any way claim to be an exact copy of the Israeli one. As far as I know, the LR never expressed an opinion on whether soldiers in this situation should obey such orders or refuse them. The issue never came up during his life. Nor am I aware of anything he ever said that could support a claim that he would have opposed refusal; any such claim can only be pure speculation. In any case, the 33 rabbis who signed this pesak obviously believe that the halacha forbids participation, and therefore they must believe that the LR would have held so as well.
re : Soldiers refusing orders.
ReplyDeleteMedia was making a big deal over the Rabbis and the right-wing in general - HOW DARE THEY SAY THAT !
I am old enough to remember the outcry during the Vietnam War decades ago - both USA and Australia introduced conscription. It was the LEFTISTS who then invented the term "conscience objectors", some even went to prison to make a point! People were outraged and compared it to MUTINY. So refusing orders is not a NEW idea, and was not invented by the right!
To obey h-shem!
ReplyDeleteYou are mistaken.
Consciene Objector has nothing to do with soldiers refusing to obey orders. The campaign in the time of Vietnam was to refuse to become a soldier NOT FOR A SOLDIER TO REFUSE ORDERS!
Australians are more loyal to their country then Jews are!
Australian are more loyal even when fighting for America in a far of land!
ReplyDeletePleas don't group all Jews with these hooligans.
Over 76% of all Jews agree with Sharon.
Sharon will win the next election.
You make some very tough accusations using Loshon Hora to argue against Loshon Hora.
ReplyDeleteYou have not explained your weird biased actions!
WHERE IS UMP?
ReplyDeleteANOTHER APOLOGY NEEDED SOON!
To Farkas V Helfgot:
ReplyDeleteTell me dear sir,did you sit with your wife in the mixed section of shul?
Regarding all the toing and froing about the GK matters and the Moshe Elkman bashing. I humbly suggest that we now start redirecting our efforts to achdus and concentrate on the ideals of Chabad which are primarily to improve ourselves and be mekarev other by using the Ahavas Yisroel method. I dare say that would bring the Rebbe much more nachas than some of the garbage that is being exchanged here.
I was at the concert and thought I will be in the seperate section. There was no such thing as seperate seating. We were fooled. From the minute I arrived till the minute I left the only way not to see women was to close my eyes. And most women did not even cover their hair in a shule.
ReplyDeleteFor Kahn/Chabad to organise this event leaves a lot to be desired mtaam chassidus!
Don't let the settlers fool you
ReplyDeleteBy Nehemia Strasler
A stranger from Mars who read the newspapers, listened to the radio and saw the television could conclude that the pullout from Gaza had been carried out under unconceivable duress by a heartless army of conquest that fell on an innocent group of people and dragged them from their homes - without preparation, without warning, without compensation, without assistance - and sentenced them to cruel exile with only the shirts on their backs.
The settlers have the knack of turning themselves into "the robbed Cossack." They will always present themselves as the ones who have been wronged, the hapless who have been maltreated, the trampled-on minority - even though the truth is the exact opposite. They complain about everything - that "no solution" was prepared for them, that the temporary housing is not suitable, that the double-wide trailer is too small, that the hotels are too full and the babies have no Materna and no pacifiers.
They are so concerned about the children that only a few days ago they put them smack up front in the struggle. Some of them dressed their children with yellow Stars of David and pushed them in front of the cameras. One of them held his baby out a window and we all trembled to think that he could suddenly drop the baby .
With all their arrogance, they did not even attempt to pack their belongings. Let the soldiers (the "doormats," as one settler called them) do it for them. For they are the lords of the land, and the army is there to serve them. Religion has also been modified to suit their political objectives.
Between complaints, they forgot that until the last minute and even beyond that they believed that divine intervention would prevent disengagement. They forgot that since February 2005, when the Evacuation-Compensation Law was passed in the Knesset, the head of the Disengagement Administration and the director general of the Prime Minister's Office ran after them to come and talk, and that they refused.
In the beginning, the treasury allocated NIS 3.5 billion for the evacuees. But they brought lawyers and demands. In the end, their plots were valued like those in Kiryat Gat. Their houses were valued at $1,000 per square meter and they received compensation for every year of residence in Gaza, plus a six-month vacation from the state, plus a pension for anyone above 55, plus rent for two years.
On average, an evacuated family will receive $450,000. Those who lived there almost rent-free for two years will receive $150,000. Is there any better investment anywhere?
The idea was that they would take the money, build a future and not have complaints. But the settlers knew they could squeeze more out of Ariel Sharon, so they invented the idea of a community. It's all about living of the state as they have done so well for 30 years.They now want to move en bloc so that the state will build the community for them. That is, they will get compensation, get rent and also get the state to do everything for them.
Now the director general of the Prime Minister's Office, Ilan Cohen, is breaking new records. He is proposing to set up an exact copy of Neveh Dekalim with all its public institutions, so that all the functionaries will have jobs.
This is a crying shame, a waste of public funds. In Ashkelon, there are 1,200 plots for houses next to the sea. There are suitable schools, roads and infrastructure. But that is not good enough for the lords of the land.
The residents of Elei Sinai also want more. They have set up a tent city near Yad Mordechai, even though there are beautiful rental houses waiting for them, which they can use until their own homes are built. This tactict as so many others is exactly copied from the Palestinians with their refugee camps. They also want to move en bloc, with all their institutions, and to have double-wide trailers, because that is what behooves the lords of the land.
Elkman and co. are right!
ReplyDeleteTHESE POOR SETTLERS ARE REFUGEES!
The UN should convene to find a safe haven for these poor refugees. Maybe Australia will accept some of these poor refugees, as other western nations.
SHAME ON SHARON FOR CREATING A JEWISH REFUGEE PROBLEM.
WE NEED ACTIVISTS TO VOLUNTEER AS SUICIDE BOMBERS TO HIT ISRAELI TARGETS, SO THESE ISRAELI NAZIS WILL FINALLY GET THE MESSAGE " N E V E R A G A I N "V
Some extreme anti zionistic emails have been sent recently by Moshe Elkman, he has a large group of people he forwards them to, including:-
ReplyDeleteAmnesty International;
Ariel Sharon
Binyamin Nethanyahu
Ehud Olmert;
George W Bush
Matan Vilna'ie;
Meir Shlomo Kluwgant
Michael Danby
John Howard
Neil Mitchell
Shimon Peres
Yehoishophot Oliver
Has he a din of a Rodef? Could our Rabbis let me know?
milhouse. You defend the idefensible and don't do a very good job of it either).
ReplyDeleteYou say "The translation of "akum" as "marauders" is certainly correct - how else would you translate it for an English-speaking audience that is unfamiliar with the original gemara?"
I don't know where you learnt Hebrew but Akum does NOT mean marauders. It simply means "non-jews" (or, more accurately "pagans"). Mzaybe for clarity one could have got away with "non-Jewish enemies". This would quite clearly have shown that it is not the Israeli police or Tzava that were meant!
You say: "Given this context, the only conclusion an honest reader could come to is that the "marauders" referred to are people outside the borders, whose conquest of the border town might enable them to invade the country that town protects. No honest reader could possibly understand this as a reference to Tzahal, which already controls the whole country, and has no need to "conquer" it, let alone to take down some yishuvim in order to facilitate such a conquest."
The fact is that every single critic did take the incorrect translation as referring to a call for resisting tzahal and Israeli police - so no matter what your theories and explnations they are proven wrong by the reality of how the words were interpreted! The change was a major one which precipitated the damaging criticism and the rabbis have an absolute right to be angry and protest at that.
You say: "The English version does not claim to be a strict translation,"
That's an excuse?! With what chutzpah can one transpose signatures from a document in the first place even if it is onto an exact translation of that document - let alone if that document is admitted to be not a strict translation?!
I presume that neutral analyst will answer for himself but you say to him "The prohibition against participating is in the Hebrew version as well". In my reading of his comment, neutral analyst was referring to the original psak by the three hundred Israeli Rabbis. That psak, that Oliver's psak was "adapted" from (and was alleged to form the basis of the locally published psak) said nothing about resistance or non-participation. It was this point that fueled the major criticism of the pusak published here. You have not answered the valid question as to why Oliver in his "adaption" included these controversial and inflamatory issues if they were not in the original Israeli psak. This change (that obviously, judging by their reaction, was unfortunately indeed not piucked up by most of the 33 local rabbis) was ultimately majorly responsible for the damaging reaction and Oliver has to indeed bear the major reponsibilyt for these additions and cahnes.
In addition, you are wrong once again when you claim that this issue of whether or not the soldiers should obey orders did not come up in the Rebbe's lifetime. It quite clearly came up in the evacuation of Sinai and Yamit twenty years ago. Despite the strength of the Rebbe's protest in those years he never once called for or even hinted at physical resistance or that soldiers should not obey orders re the evacuation. So it certainly did come up in his lifetime and anyone, such as yourself, who would even suggest that the Rebbe would promote violence or anarchy is just so wrong and desecrates r"l the Rebbe's memory.
My Rabbi publicly stated that the only reason he signed was that he was gauranteed that the psak given to him was IDENTICAL to the Israeli Psak of the 300 Rabbis!
ReplyDeleteConverting the Pain to a Motivating Power
ReplyDeleteThe seven days of destruction, during which the government succeeded in annihilating 26 Jewish settlements and to expel some 10 thousand Jews from their homes in Israel are never to be forgotten. We will remember the sights and the sounds. We shall preserve in our hearts the heartfelt screams that were blocked by sealed faces. We shall inscribe the prayers in our hearts and maintain the tears that were spilled.
We will utilize these memories as a motivating power not only to assure the removal of those who were part of this crime from public positions. This is important, but it is a waste to direct our energies to feelings of revenge. The most important mission is to utilize this horrible destruction we have witnessed and to convert it to a basis for the foundation of a new existence where such atrocities would be prevented from recurring.
This excerpt is from Rabbi Menachem Brod's editorial in this week's Sichas Hashavua by Tsach
Why are the Rabbonim complaining?
ReplyDeleteDo you read a document before the sign it?
Well most of us do and if Rabbonim have signed a PSAK whether in Hebrew,Englisk or Ladino ,one would expect our Rabbonimto have read all documentation.
What worries me ,is that how often are Rabbonim signing documents and not reading the contents.
THEY REMIND ME OF THE POLICE MINISTER TIM HOLDING.
ReplyDeleteThere is no question that the Rabbis and teachers should have been much less impulsive in signing something they did not fully check out. However, this does not exonerate Elkman and Oliver from their deceit, fraud, and presumptousness.
ReplyDeleteMost signaturies were not Rabbis. Smicha doesn't make a teacher into a Rabbi. Rabbis are people like Rabbi Groner, Levin, M. Gutnick etc.
ReplyDeleteMost signaturies were not Rabbis. Smicha doesn't make a teacher into a Rabbi. Rabbis are people like Rabbi Groner, Levin, M. Gutnick etc.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course RABBI OLIVER!
ReplyDeleteWHEN IS THE STATE OF JUDEA AMUSMENT PARK OPENING IN CALIFORNIA?
ReplyDeleteIT SHOULD BE FUN!!!!!
Who actually signed the PSAk?
ReplyDeletecan we get a list of names
TO ANONYMOUS.
ReplyDeleteI AGREE WITH YOU! SHOSHANA IS THE BEST. SHE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS GUTS TO PUT HER NAME TO WHAT SHE SAYS. SHE SAYS WHAT MOST OF US BELIEVE BUT ARE SCARED OF THOSE FANATICS WHO THREATEN TO STICK UP FOR THE REAL VIEWS OF THE REBBE!
WE NEED 50 MORE SILCOVES!
AMEN
To authentic lubavitcher.
ReplyDeleteThere was a section for separate seating, and if it is as you say, why didn't you just leave? Perhaps you aren't as authentic as you think!
yeah Shoshanah !! You got me and my vote too
ReplyDeleteTo Yankel Probably you are right that AL should have left the concert (as I should have) but that doesn't explain how could M.K. cause some many chassidim to sit in a shule totally mixed with women, some even singing along.
ReplyDeleteChabad is not a service for providing mixed entertainment!
'SHE SAYS WHAT MOST OF US BELIEVE BUT ARE SCARED OF THOSE FANATICS '
ReplyDeleteThanks for your nice words of support sue d.
But what I fail to comprehend is why are people afraid? What are they afraid of?
If some people malign me because they disagree with my views then that is their problem. I am not a politican so I don't need their votes and I can say what I believe in.
The only thing we should be afraid of is Hashem.
To Elkman, when your drunkness wears of I will let you know that the Americans are giving enormous monies to the settlers.
ReplyDeleteThe average amount for each evacuated Family is US$450,000. part of this is coming from the Americans.
But don't worry our not materialistic settlers want more money, so they are fighting the Israeli Government that needs the money to protect Jews and the settlers are also shnorring from around the world including from Melbourne Jewry.
The 40% of settlers who created havoc together with outside protesters have cost the Israeli economy over $250 million dollars!
ReplyDeleteTHIS MONEY SHOULD BE DEDUCTED FROM THEIR GENEROUS PACKAGES!
ReplyDeleteSue D
ReplyDeleteIf we get 50 more Silcoves,there won't be enough room left on the blog to comment on.
That made me chuckle ;^)
ReplyDeleteHope my boss doesn't catch on!
The latest is that all the ones causing the havoc in the settlements at the time of disengagement where outsiders, NOT THE SETTLERS themselves.How does one figure that? people fighting other people battles?
ReplyDeleteAlso,
I'd rather have 50 Shoshanah's than one Oliver anytime any day !!
The settlers prove time and again, they have no respect for the government, laws, history of the Jewish people, the Torah, and even Israel, and then they complain that almost nobody is volunteering to help them. The IDF who put their lives on the line for 30 years defending them have been treated in a most shameful way. I am very dissapointed in the chabad community, all the good they do is useless when it goes hand in hand with their current behaviour.
ReplyDeleteHowever horrible it is to forcibly relocate ones family it is no excuse to act this way, throwing even one egg is inexcusable, not to mention acid, rocks, paint etc. They have become an embarrassment to Jewish people in Israel and around the world. All the energy that was expended not to cause a scar to the people of Israel during the disengagement by the police and army is being ripped to shreds by the settlers just like they tend to do with the nation`s flag.
Paying approx. $450,000 per family to them is a sick joke.
Re the Helfgoot concert - OK we may not expect any better from the Melb Hebrew Congregation, but our own Chabad Youth!!!????
ReplyDeleteTurning a shul into a theatre??
Having a meshugenner like David Helfgott who is married to s shiksa, playing his totally non-Jewish music, running aroung kissing everyon ein sight including some be-shaitelled ladies of our community [those sitting in the front rows]!!
Having men a nad women inside a bes haknesses mixed, womed with uncovered hair, singing along and all this in front of an aron hakodesh with sifrei torah inside!!
THis is Chabad????
Am I the only person in Melb who is disappointed and shocked at this latest shtik of ours?
First we have a gambling night at Central Chabad, now this. What next? Belly dancing ??
And was it really necessary to have our girls leading the Tehillim?
Tell me the name anothe rchassidish or charedi place in the entire universe where this happens??
No wonder we are losing kids. We are a bunch of hypocrites.
Yep. Modern Orthodox chassidim or as my CH cousin calls them "Lubavitch-Lite".
When, oh when, will we come to our senses?
Let's all become BTs, You speak the truth about that concert,but with so much hate. I doubt it is self hate.You are no lubavitcher! That's for sure.Why post your comments here? Go directly to the organiser of this concert and confront him.make a gevald to the older members of the Lubavitch community who are sympathetic to your opinion. shooting off your venom here is totally pointless and futile.
ReplyDeleteYankel so you believe as the PTB do to bury our heads in the sand to further 'farshmutz' the name of Lubavitch and wait till more kids leave the fold!
ReplyDeleteTdoay's AJN, Page 6:
ReplyDeleteBut he (Yosel Gutncik) stood by the right of Chabad in Australia to vocie its opinion about Israeli politics. "Austrlian Jews have a very small mentality. They can't take the boat being rocked. But what happens in Israel affects every Jew in the world...."
Thanks for the insult Yosel. If we Australian Jews have a 'very small mentality', then that must mean you have a big mentality? Just a tad bit arrogant of Yosel, eh?
Read the article from the first page and see how Yosel and Rabbi Groner skirt all the issues, offer no explanations, and shift all blame to their critics.
And at the end Rabbi Groner in his usual style makes himself the focus and complains about the flak he received from all this. Are we suppossed to feel sorry for him? Chabad's name gets dragged throught the mud, scores of Rabbis and teachers suffer damage to their reputations and their institutions, and in the end Rabbi Groner asks for sympathy for him?
And these are, as the AJN wrote the most prominent Rabbis of Chabad? G-d help us!
So the AJN has proof that the psak was altered.
ReplyDeleteThank you Mr Elkman and ex Rabbi Oliver!
Elkmans words of yesterday!
ReplyDelete"THE FIGHT HAS JUST BEGAN"
Facts of life!
ReplyDeleteYou are so shallow yet so full of yourself that you are overflowing into the sewerage.Every article in the AJN this weekend including the letters to the editor have been focused on rectifying the damaging comments of previous weeks.If you dissagree with this weeks comments for Chabad/Lubavitch then obvioulsy you are no freind of lubavitch, then whatever you say means very little, in fact whatever you say will be sheker and hevel.So put a lid on it, or flush yourslef down the toilet..or do teshuvah!!!!!
To yankel.
ReplyDeleteYou are no chosid!
This weeks AJN is a disgrace. Why do we need to suck up to the treife media. We should be proud of our shitta. The Rebbe was against giving back land and Greenbaum and others are ashamed of what we stand for. Be proud of chabad, be proud of Mashiach and don't bow to the leftish idiots who have sold the settlers out.
Kol b'yar.
ReplyDeleteOh so you're the chossid? You're going to instruct us on the Rebbe's views? You of course know better than the people you ridiculed. Greenbaum's mei raglayim are worth more than you and your like. Are you tzudreit oifn kop? Silly question! Of course you are! You have no idea what the Rebbe is for or against. But I am sure that he is against the likes of you. You are a nifrod, heipach hakavonoh and an am ho'oretz beyond belief. You are a kol b'yar of no significance whatever! Go and learn! Have shiurim! Do tshuvah amitis and make a cheshbon hanefesh every night on why you should get up the next morning to see the light of day!!
Yankel you seem very angry. Please look after your health as chas v'sholom if you get a heart attack we will all miss your wonderful anova, midos and ahavas yisroel.
ReplyDeleteBer,
ReplyDeleteDon't be concerned about me. I am not angry at all. I consider the comments here most trivial, but at times humorous, and I respond in kind.Kol b'yar is an expert in small talk so I gave him some back. That's all.But he should take them seriously tho. He is definitley got some deranged ideas and self grandeur. Lechaim V'livrochoh
I stand by my words and am proud for what real lubavitchers stand for.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Groner is pathetic and weak. He agrees with everything Moshe Elman did but is scared of what the Jewish news write.
Moshe does not move without Reb Chaim Tzvi!
What do you chochom know about Greenbaums mei raglayim? I suppose you are also a scientist?
ReplyDeleteGet yourself a life!
Yankel Pfepferkranz said...
ReplyDeleteLet's all become BTs, You speak the truth about that concert,but with so much hate.
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Hate??? Bistu meshuge?
Pain. Severe pain that all the work of our parents here is ending up in the modern orthodox and secular drain. You probably couldn't care, but for us older chabad Families - it REALLY hurts.
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Why post your comments here? Go directly to the organiser of this concert and confront him.make a gevald to the older members of the Lubavitch community who are sympathetic to your opinion.
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Of course I have. And they attack me for it and try saying that I am against kiruv!!
Yep. the meshuggner David helfgott kissing the women - that was REAL kiruv!
let's all become bt's-
ReplyDeleteOnce when my son was still in YC there was an program in evening in Werdiger Hall. I walked in and was in shock because it was mixed seating. I went to one of the school officials and asked him to make an announcement that men and women must sit separately, as there were seats in separate sides, but without a mechitzah. This school official argued vigorously with me saying that some of the parents there were not frum and they would be 'insulted" I put up a stink, saying that we should expect these non-frum parents who send their children to a frum school know that we have standards that they should abide by and not visa versa (that we fall to their standards, G-d forbid). This school offical,a Lubavitcher, refused to make the announcement. So I went to one of the secular adminstrators and spoke to her. She had more respect for Torah than the Lubav did and she made the announcement. The parents all moved their seats politely and respectfully with no protest--and that was that!
When we stand for our beliefs, when we have standards, we get respect!
So,I agree with you and I am a BT. Every time you try to bring the standards up to a Chassidishe level, the people in charge or those with the responsibiity, knock you back. It is as if they are all functioning in one mass, with a collective yetzer hora making them go down further and further until they all go frie together. Somehow this community has a strong lack of committment to Chassidishkite and is modernising at a rapid rate, and soon what will be left?
shoshana, well said
ReplyDelete