I certainly dispute the statement that things are being blown out of proportion. There is a widespread dissatisfaction with the Chabad establishment in Melbourne and I believe that most of those people feel disloyal in speaking out. The advantage of a blog is that they can express their views honestly. The sooner that the administration/executive/head shaliach (= PTB) will acknowledge this dissatisfaction the sooner the issues can be resolved.
The complete comment from "Chochom" is reproduced below (since I haven't got the hang of linking to comments yet). I welcome comments on his/her opinions but say again that I will not stand for personal abuse. It is true that he mentioned Rabbi Groner but I will delete any comment that speaks about him in a disrespectful manner. Rabbi Groner has been the Rebbe's shaliach in Melbourne for the past 45 years and has worked tirelessly for the mosad. Whatever issues we have with him now don't justify disrespect.
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Chochom said...
I am somewhat new to all this "blog" stuff but have been reading all these fascinating comments regarding the YCBR.
I would like to make at this point just a few initial points.
1. The extant & degree of dissatisfaction with the YCBR & the whole Melbourne Chabad community, including this nonsense term PTB, is presented by all the "bloggers" who have commented on this blog as being widespread & almost at a critical level, as if the very soul & essence of the Chabad character of our community is at risk.
Lets put things in perspective. Yes there are problems, which by the way exist in every Chabad community in the world. CH is probably the worst. Things can be improved & I do agree that people should be able to express their concerns & receive a proper hearing from the community leaders, both lay & rabbinic.
But I have the sense that the contributors to this blog really represent a small group of people, who probably due to their own personal experiences, which I can understand, have some real issues & grievances with the YCBR leadership.
The wider community, though they may obviously have concerns & complaints, probably don't have the passion & hostility evident in many of the comments made by regular contributors to this blog.
Maybe they are all just too content & "baalabatish" to give a damn. But maybe also they, on balance, recognise that we have a lot to be proud of & particularly those who have been associated with the YCBR for a long time, have seen gradual improvement & growth, both qualitatively & quantitatively. I am one of those, perhaps who you could accuse of being part of the "establishment" that remembers the YCBR in the 60's & 70's when the 1st shluchim to the YG came & the school is way better.
Secondly, though I actual agree quite strongly with all the arguments for more accountability, democratic elections etc etc.. but everyone has forgotten one of the essential features & "doctrines" of Chabad communities throughout the world i.e the notion of the "Head Shliach", who the Rebbe zatzal appointed to establish & build the community.
Now, I don't want to get into a long philosophical discussion on the pros & cons of this concept & I am very well aware of how this concept has resulted in our sister city, Sydney "self imploding" .
However, as long as Rabbi Groner is healthy & actively involved in running the YCBR, he will argue that he was (& is) the Rebbes Shliach & don't expect real progress towards "democracy" until there is a changing of the guard. This is not a criticism of Rabbi Groner, I would not be frum if not for his work, but this is the reality.
However, come that day, I am absolutely sure, that the "PTB" (which possibly includes me, depending on its definition) who are not evil, corrupt people seeking leadership for power or financial benefits, will have no choice but to reorganise the leadership of the various Mosdos in our community based upon more representative foundations.
This is both self evident, as Melbourne will never be able to replace Rabbi Groner as a strong single "Head Shliach" & is based on my own conversations with the YCBR executive members who all recognise this eventuality. Not only because of its unavoidability but also because they all think it is correct & necessary for a mature community like ours.
So much for my first contribution. A little lengthy but I thought these points were important to be acknowledged.
I don't spend a lot of time reading blogs, but I will look forward to any comments & objections raised by other contributors.
As an aside, its interesting how all the very "Chassidish" contributors who bemoan the influence of the Internet seem to be very in touch with this form of medium & have, what appears to me, ready access to the Internet & "surf" it regularly. But my views on this & other "worldy" matters versus the current trend towards insularity is for another occasion.
Well thanks at least for answering and being honest about matter.
ReplyDeleteAnd while we pray and hop ethat Rabbi Groner is well, hale and hearty, it seems that we can expect no substantial changes and improvements in the near future.
This is a little depressing and won't do any good for the children currently enrolled in YCBR.
So back to the drawing board...What's the eitzah?
Look, the PTB and not bad people, but they are people with an agenda, like everyone else.
ReplyDeleteI think the argument on this blog, which is agreed to by almost every Lubavitcher without a TV (and many others too) is that there are in fact two different Lubavitch groups in Melbourne. The ruling clique (you prefer that to PTB?) are for the most part, representatives of "modern Lubavitch" and all that it entails.
I wish them luck with their choices, and I would even give them the school and the shul. All I ask is: Let those Lubavitchers that want to bring up their children in accordance with the Rebbe’s directives, have a school which reflects their values.
We are big enough and rich enough in Melb Chabad to have two separate mosdos. At one time, TC had 100 pupils, later 200 and so on, until the 1400 odd that they have today.
If they would allow us, and even help us, to set up a proper Lubavitcher school, they would loose no more than 200 kids. YC is sustainable with that amount, it ran quite well with it a number of years ago.
Why is it that you will not allow this? Is it because you realize that without us (the non modern Lubavitchers) and our influence on your kids, they would totally slip out of Yidishkeit? If that's the case, maybe it's you who need to ask yourselves some serious questions about your own lifestyle.
In the world we live in, the centre is diminishing fast. You who are so comfortable with your modern clothes, long hair, baseball caps, TV and movies (again enjoy all of these in good health, I wish you no harm), can you at least not see where this lifestyle leads? Your children will either keep more than you do or R”L less, but not the same.
Can you at least not allow those of us who really want to build the next generation of real Chassidim, to run our own mosad free of your and your children’s influences on our kids?
You want nachas from your children and we want nachas from ours. Why is it that you will not allow us to follow our own consciences and have a school which will perpetuate our lifestyle?
We are not asking you to change anything, just let us be!
"As an aside, its interesting how all the very "Chassidish" contributors who bemoan the influence of the Internet seem to be very in touch with this form of medium & have, what appears to me, ready access to the Internet & "surf" it regularly."
ReplyDeleteThe simple answer is that those of us who care about our kids do now allow them access to internet. If you cannot understand the difference between a frum adult using a public library or having a private post office box, and a child doing the same thing, then I cannot help you.
Its "erev shabbos" & I don't have much time to respond to the few comments my contribution has received. IY"H perhaps after shabbos I will respond.
ReplyDeleteOne thing, however, I want to clear up.
Whereas I am flattered by the moderator of this blog to be thought as the PTB or ruling clique, in fact I am not in anyway part of the strict definition of the PTB. I have no influence on the direction of the YCBR except for my exercising my freedom of speech i.e I can talk & complain to the true ruling clique. When I implied that I may be part of the PTB, I simply meant that as a long & established member of this community, with close friendships to the ruling clique, some people may see me as part of the establishment & having more influence than many of the newcomers to our community. I don't have any power that can directly affect the direction of the YCBR. I am just close to the ruling clique & have always found that I can talk & argue with them openly & freely, & believe me I have a reputation for this.
Gut Shabbos
under Australian Government, it is illegal to have a school with no chol, unless you home school. it would thus, I assume, be illegal for YC to set this up under its auspices, even if in theory they were willing.
ReplyDeleteALso, most of the group that would want a new school are from large families, and low incomes. If the govt wont support the school becaue it falls outside their legal perimeters, how will the school be established and sustained?
which raises the question: The term 'PTB' is being thrown around and made mention to in abundance here. What exactly is the 'SCOPE' of these so called PTB...how much power must one have such that the suffix 'That Be' can be attached to the end of it - therebye renedering one amoungst this elite 'PTB'. Just posing the question...
ReplyDeleteThe Friediker Rebbe wrote (Likutei Dibburim p 162 English edition):
ReplyDelete"Approaching his listeners in gentle terms, the sage had explained at the time what a weighty repsonsibility lies upon parents to bring up their children in the straight path of Torah and mitzvahs, by following which they will be protected from the crooked paths of dishonesty and violence, and their parents--after 120 years in this world--will leave behind them Kaddeishim of whom they can be proud. Indeed, the good deeds of the children will open up for their departed parents the portals and palaces of Gan Eden. The talmid chacham has also warned of the contrary possibility: if parents did not take due care and enroll their children in cheiderim and yeshivos IMBUED WITH THE AWE OF HEAVEN, they would bring misfortune upon themselves and upon their chidlren."
According to this quote from the Rebbe Rayatz, successful chincuch is dependent upon homes and yeshivos with atmoshpheres permeated with yiras shamayim.
The most successful mosodos in Lubavtich around the world today, are those in which the kodesh studies are actively guided by those whose specialty is in the field of Torah education. These chinuch experts are given final authority on all of the design and implementation of the religious curriculum. The gvrim, while they play a vital and neccessary role in a yeshivo's establishment and ongoing funtioning, are expected to defer to the authority of the educational experts in all matters pertaining to the actual quality and direction of all kodesh studies. This arrangement is almost analogous to "Yissacher and Zevulun".
Furthermore, in many Chabad communities there is a large variance in the levels of observance among the members. Successful yeshivos therefore recognize the need for there to be a variety of levels of educational programmes to meet. A 'one size fits all' educational system becomes self defeating, especially in communities such as ours which can boast of accepting many foreigners (i.e. Russians, Israelis) as well as newcomers to the fold into its ranks.
Melbourne is not only a fantasitc liveable city, but we also have been blessed with an abundant Jewish infrastructure (much as a result of the tireless work of the Head Shluchim and the early founders) and a substantial number of learned Torah scholars.
Moreover, we have the ability, because of a temperate climate, a good economy, and the fact that we speak English, to attract young talent from around the Chabad world that are seeking new challenging positions.
Presently however, our community is in a period of stagnation and regression. The present YC network has become morbibound, unable to adapt to the present changing reality. This new reality consists of the "post-Gimel Tamuz Chabad syndrome" and the present demographical trends resulting in three groups of students.
1) a student population that is not as motivated by Chabad principles as the balei teshuvah were in the past. Many of which (but not all) consist of new immigrants who are satisfied with a Jewish day school and do not want a Chabad Chassidishe education. The YC system seems to cater maninly to their needs.
2) children of the highly motivated, idealistic, and inspired people who became balei teshuvah a decade or two ago. Often their parents, while very observant, are not equipped, because of gaps in their own Torah education, to provide their children with extensive Torah learning at home. These parents want a Chabad Chassidishe education for their children and are depending on the schools provide it. Unfortuantely, many are now dissappointed that the schools are not giving their children this, and find themselves at a complete loss as to what to do. Many of the children in this catagory are floundering and struggling the most.
3) then the third group of students are the children of the shluchim and Torah scholars. While their parents can provide them with adequate Torah and Chassidshe educations at home, many of these parents are also dissatisfied with the schools. This dissatisfaction stems from the negative influence of the peers from the schools and the low level of Chassidishe chinuch. Many of these parents find themselves forced to send thier children to overseas yeshivos at earlier and earlier ages in order to compensate for the lack of Chabad hashkafas of YC.
The parents in catagory number one do not speak out against the YC system becuase most of them are quite satisfied with the schoools.
Many of the parents in the second catagory, while dissatsfied with the YC system, will not speak out because of their unfamiliarity with Chabad chinuch in general and they lack the confidence to be certain enough to protest. Another reason for silence among the balei teshuvah has to do with what I call the 'baal teshuvah syndrome' in which many BT's want to feel like they belong to the inner circle and will not risk social ostracism--they want to be accepted socially.
The parents of the third catagory, the Torah scholars and shluchim, are extremely aware of the inadequacies of the YC system but are especially loathe to speak out about these problems because most of them get their parnassa from the YC network. No one wants to bite the hand that feeds them.
In conclusion, we have everything neccessary b'gashmias and b'ruchnias here in Mlebourne to make great Chassidshe schools for our children. The only thing lacking is the RATZON, the will!
Just had a phone call from a woman who just read this blog. She told me a horror story about how her son fried out. The parents are frum Chassidishe people.
ReplyDeleteHer son was a YC student. As a child he was always a good boy. Then in high school he got turned off to Yiddishkeit, hung out with the wrong kids, one thing lead to anoother, he moved out at aged 15, and now he is living like a goy.
It is all too common a story, but the most salient point she emphasized to me tonight is that thing that bothers her the most about YC is that no one cared when it happened and no one still cares. She said none of the teachers, the principle, or any members of the PTC ever bothered to find out what her son was feeling or what bothered him. None of them ever tried to find out what was on his mind or what happened in his life. As far as they were concerned, he was a problem that they no longer had to deal with once he left school, he was off their hands and they cold care less what happened to him in life.
Many times people have told me this--that the PTC simply shows NO CARING at all for the children.
If there are others who have had this similar experience, please comment, even anonymously.
The PTC DOES NOT CARE.
is the kid that fried out from a normal lubavitch home?
ReplyDelete"ALso, most of the group that would want a new school are from large families, and low incomes"
ReplyDeleteAnd many of those low incomes, themselves, come from the current schools, which they would want to work aganst...
The Rebbe's attitude towards building new mosdos and their finances has always been one of "lichatchilah ariber" (a saying by the Rebbe Maharash)which is roughly translated as "if you want to achieve something in kedushah and see an obstacle, simply go over it and forge ahead".
ReplyDeleteThe phenomenal unprecedented proliferation of vast numbers of Chabad projects worldwide is in large part due to this attitude. The Rebbe taught us that if we have the RATZON, (the will) which according to Chassidus is the highest level motivating a person, then all other external obstacles, such as finances etc., will, with the Abishter's help, automatically become easily surmountable.
And those of us who have been around the Chabad movement for a number of years have seen over and over again how this has been true. We have countless examples of Chabad accomplishing amazing things in kedushah with little or no resources, we have witnessed unbelievable growth in our times.
How can we doubt for a moment that if we have the desire to accomplish the establishment of new Chabad schools that we cannot do it? Of course we are capable and with the Rebbe's brucha we will succeed!
The only question that remains is--do we have the will?
Chochom: Since you are close to the PTB could you please ask for a comment from one of the Executive to people's concerns here.
ReplyDeleteis the kid that fried out and the school didnt care about jewish??????
ReplyDelete" is the kid that fried out and the school didnt care about jewish??????"
ReplyDeleteThat's an odd question.
For what it's worth, though, several members of the hanhala have children who have (lo aleinu!) taken bad paths. I think we can presume their parents did everything in their power to prevent this, and failed. Why should we presume that there is anything the school could have done in this case?
Based on the poll's question the options are missing one logical choice, discuss change with the HANHALA of the schools itself. Not the PTB (executive) If there is a concrete idea for change for example no videos to be shown at school...bring it up with the pricipals and let them realise how many people support this change(perhaps with a signed petition) If there are educational videos that need to be shown they should be listed at the beginning of the year and put on the book lists so parents can allow or not allow ther children to watch.Just an idea...
ReplyDeletePoint taken. I consider the Hanholo as part of the PTB not just the executive. In my mind a meeting with the PTB, especially with regard to the schools, whould automatically include the Hanholo.
ReplyDeleteI like your suggestion re vidoes. Are the English novels vetted before they are put on the syllabus?
Meetings will change nothing. If the PTB lacks warmkite, if the atmosphere of the YC BR system is not permeated with yiras shamayim, then what will meeetings achieve?
ReplyDeleteFor parents who want a Chassidishe school they need to set up a new school run by people with strong Chassidishe hashkafas and dedication to chinuch and with the well being of the kinderlach as their first and only priority.
Although vetting books and videos are good things to do, it is like trying to cure a terminal disease with an aspirin.
If the PTB has any priorities that come before the spiritual development of the students, then the children will instinctively know it and feel it and this will adversely affect their Yiddishkeit, no matter how many books are vetted or meetings are held.
Hi, I am writing from NY.
ReplyDeleteAbout 15 years ago I visited yourtwon and of course was shown the YC.
At the time I saw a notice to the students recommending them to watch certain TV programs that night (or week).
I was shocked and spoke to the perosn showing me around.
He explained that the students watch TV anyway so this way they hope to direct them to 'appropriate' programs.
I have never heard of a chassidic or even charedi school here have such 'krum' hashkafa.
My wife was equally as shocked when she saw the way BR are allowed to dress - in fact MADE to dress in a non-tzenius uniform and not wearing tigts etc. Another unheard of behaviour.
Mr New Yorker you should have watched our chassidishe girls tuesday night in front of Yeshiva Shule. Would have been more appropriate for Broadway.
ReplyDeleteMr. G seems to feel the Rebbe was a very nice man but that we shouldn't take his ideas or wishes too seriously...too old fashioned...not 'with it' enough.
ReplyDeleteI don't think anyone should be exposed to this sort of anonymous slander, particularly someone who has labored so tirelessly for Jewish education. The only people immune to criticism are those who do nothing.
ReplyDeleteJoe, No one is above critcism especially those who have influence over the future of Jewish children.
ReplyDeleteLook, the PTB, inluding Mr G., has been doing whatever they want and have maede themselves above the people, unaswerable to anyone. They do not respond to parental concerns and through their arrogance and incomeptence have ruined many children. People write anonymously because if they identify thesmelves, the PTB will make thier lives miserable.
What else can one do under this sort of communism?
I don't suggest that anyone is above criticism. The messsage I objected to is a mere insult and has no place within civilised discourse.
ReplyDeleteJoe, I think the poster was tryng to make the point that Mr. G is very modern in his approach to BR and the school is much more modern than the Rebbe would have approved of. The poster is right on!
ReplyDeleteMr Gurevitz runs the school under the auspices of the Rebbe's shaliach, and if the Rebbe was unhappy with Beth Rivka then he would probably have done something about it. I don't think you can say that "the school is much more modern than the Rebbe would have approved of" unless you're suggesting that the school has changed significantly over the past decade or so.
ReplyDeleteI guess this is worth asking: did anyone ask the Rebbe about either Yeshiva or Beth Rivka? What did he say?
jds
Oh now I get it! The Rebbe instructed BR to be run with the only standard of tznius enforced is that the girls do not wear pants! (sarcasm meant).
ReplyDeleteHonestly AE, this blog is so entertaining and enlightening. I think I am getting addicted because it gives me such insight into how some people can look at things--with amazing mental calisthenics!
"The Rebbe instructed BR to be run with the only standard of tznius enforced is that the girls do not wear pants!"
ReplyDeleteI don't think this is the case, but it would be interesting to find out if he did in fact express any views about the way it is run, or ought to be run. If your position is that Beth Rivka should not teach particular subjects or should have a different uniform then it's up to you to explain why these things (which are very long-standing) apparently met with the Rebbe's approval.
JOE, I can't give you an entire education on what are Chabad hahskafas. You either know what they are when you see them or you don't. If you don't, then go educate yourself.
ReplyDelete"I can't give you an entire education on what are Chabad hahskafas. You either know what they are when you see them or you don't. If you don't, then go educate yourself"
ReplyDeleteThat's a rather harsh response to my question. The way I see it, unless the Rebbe criticised the schools either
1) the Rebbe didn't know about Yeshiva / Beth Rivka; or
2) he did know and didn't care; or
3) the situation troubled him, but he thought that protesting would be pointless; or
4) the schools met with his approval.
I can't believe that any of the first three alternatives are correct. The Rebbe had good sources of information on any matter of which he chose to enquire; he displayed enormous passion for the educational institutions under his guidance; he knew that any number of his Chassidim would jump to correct any problem he identified. So my conclusion is that the Rebbe wanted a school like Yeshiva / Beth Rivka in Melbourne. That's not to say that they can't be made better, but I don't think a Chossid of the Rebbe should suggest that the schools be radically altered.
joe,I will not be presumptous enough to speak for the Rebbe.
ReplyDeleteWhat I do know is that the Rebbe spoke, advised, taught, and gave directives. He would sometimes show his approval, sometimes privately, and sometimes publicly.
The Rebbe surely understood the Torah dictum of withholding rebuke when he knew it would not be heeded, and was therefore probably often silent on certain issues because of this.
The Rebbe was a stern taskmaster. I believe the Rebbe was often frustrated with his Chassidim over the course of his 40 year reign for not heeding his directives.
The Rebbe was not a dictator, G-d forbid, and he never took away our free choice. He gave us fatherly guidance and we could choose to follow it or not. Often we did not.
My husband worked closely for the Rebbe's secretariat Rabbi Yudel Krinsky for over a decade. We had the zchus to live in the Rebbe's daled amos and we knew some of the
greatest most learned Chassidim of our generation, as well as having almost daily contact with shluchim worldwide. Through this experience we were able to learn from those whom knew the Rebbe best as to what the Rebbe valued and what he expected from his Chassidim. After a while of having contact with such people, one gains a certain insight into how the Rebbe approached certain issues.
My experience informs me that BR is not a school that makes the Rebbe proud.
With the very greatest of respect, there is you, whose husband worked for someone who worked for the Rebbe, and then there is Rabbi Groner who was actually appointed by the Rebbe. Furthermore, the question is not whether the Rebbe was proud of Beth Rivka (although I believe he was) but whether the Rebbe wanted Yeshiva and Beth Rivka to be fundamentally different. For instance, did the Rebbe want the schools to cut out "secular" subjects after year 10?
ReplyDeleteJoe,
ReplyDeleteWhy are you going around in circles? Your question was already answered in my last comment.
And who said anything about cutting secular studies after year 10? Not I. I said secular studies are too strongly emphasised in YC BR.
I cannot speak for the Rebbe, I can only say that YC BR are among the least Chassidish of all Chabad schools worldwide.
It is well known in Lub circles (In NY and many other places) that when it comes to Melbourne schools the hashkafas are "shvacha misers" (roughly translated as pathetically weak). That is our reputation within Chabad as a city. In NY they call us the 'modernists". Things are accepted here that are unheard of in Chassidish circles.
IN YC BR just about "anything goes" and I believe that the Rebbe did not hold by this.
"Your question was already answered in my last comment."
ReplyDeleteI don't believe it was. Did the Rebbe want Yeshiva / Beth RIvka to be fundamentally different?
As for your disclaimer that you cannot speak for the Rebbe, I am glad to see you say that; you seemed to suggest someting else when you said "After a while of having contact with such people, one gains a certain insight into how the Rebbe approached certain issues."
Perhaps this discussion would be more productive if you gave specifics. I believe you criticised Beth Rivka's school uniform, for instance. Is it really your position that the Rebbe disapproved of this, but did not protest because he would have been ignored?
Joe wrote "Did the Rebbe want Yeshiva / Beth RIvka to be fundamentally different?"
ReplyDeleteShoshanna says << What do you mean by fundamentally different?>>
Joe wrote "As for your disclaimer that you cannot speak for the Rebbe, I am glad to see you say that; you seemed to suggest someting else when you said "After a while of having contact with such people, one gains a certain insight into how the Rebbe approached certain issues."
Shoshanna says << Don't you know the subtle but crucial difference between having insight into what the Rebbe would want and speaking for him? What exactly is your question?>>
"Perhaps this discussion would be more productive if you gave specifics. I believe you criticised Beth Rivka's school uniform, for instance. Is it really your position that the Rebbe disapproved of this, but did not protest because he would have been ignored?"
Shoshanna says << Who mentioned uniforms? Once again, why do I have to repeat myself? Am I on trial and are you the prosecuting attorney? How much more vlear do you want me to be?>>
Shoshanna says "Who mentioned uniforms?"
ReplyDeleteYou did, up above. At least, it's a post with your name on it, dated July 25, 2005 6:26 PM.
"Once again, why do I have to repeat myself?"
I wish you wouldn't.
"Am I on trial and are you the prosecuting attorney? How much more vlear do you want me to be?"
I frankly have no idea what your views are, apart from "BR is not a school that makes the Rebbe proud," "secular studies are too strongly emphasised in YC BR," and " the only standard of tznius enforced is that the girls do not wear pants!"
You obviously feel strongly over whatever it is that you protest, but getting your actual opinion is like drawing teeth. How about if we each adjourn this until we have the time to explain our views in more detail.
jds
People usually hear what they want to hear, don"t they?
ReplyDeletejoe, Let me spell my views out for you one more time in one sentence:
ReplyDeleteBR and YC are not Chassidishe schools!
Case closed!