Thank you to a number of people for sending me the photos of the outside of Yeshivah Shul. They clearly show the Israeli flag on the fence. I personally don't have a problem with that but I can understand that to some it represents the non-religious state of Israel rather than Eretz Yisroel.
I have had various reports from the rally last night. Numbers attending ranged from 600 to 1000 - depending on who was reporting it - with approximately 40 protesters from Hashomer Hatzair youth group. Of those attending approximately 70-80% were kids and youngsters.
The official report from the rally organisers says that there were 1000 people in attendance at the Werdiger Hall. I could not find any reports on the web about it so it obviously didn't attract the (positive or negative) attention suggested here. Even the Aust Friends of Gush Katif website didn't have a report up yet just the statement that it was "a great success".
One of the first things I found out when I arrived in Lubavitch as a baalas teshuvah was that the Rebbe did not approve of displaying the magan david (six pointed star) or the Israeli flag. It is common knowledge that in Chabad one did not see these symbols displayed anywhere, at least not until now.
ReplyDeleteOf course the rebbe didn't allow any symbols of zionism or modern israel. He mentioned more than once that if the Satmar Rebe hadn't battled the zionists - he would have had to do so.
ReplyDeleteBut although having israeli flag fluttering [it looked more like it was strung up] in front of our [and the rebbe's] shul is disturbing, unfortunately our many other problems - especially with our younger generation are far more urgent and ned our immediate attention.
The root of all our problems stem from the betrayal of the Rebbe's ideals and instructions.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe left us resources and a legacy. We have all the guidance we need to forge ahead and make him proud if we so choose.
My teacher and close mentor Rabbi Friedman once told me, "Do you know the difference between a chosidel (a baby chosid) and a chosid? A chosidel loves the Rebbe, but a chosid loves what the Rebbe loves."
Before the Rebbe was nistalik, a chosidel was the one who went to 770 and watched the Rebbe's every move, and imitated the Rebbe in superficial ways (i.e. wore his hat the same way as the Rebbe did etc.). Nowadays, a chosidel is the one who loves to wave flags, make noise in public, scream and chant slgoans (Yechi) excitedly, and display the Rebbe's photos as if he was a rock star (lehavdil).
A chosid is beyond all that shtus. A chosid is more mature, and is involved with and lives with the Rebbe's ideas and teachings, and identifies with the Rebbe's goals.
Are we raising your child to be a chosidel or a chosid? Are raising our kinderlach to get excited over the Rebbe as a symbol, or to get excited over the Rebbe as a complex genius whose living example we should emulate?
Are we raising the next generation to see themselves as priveleged members of an elite group, or are we rasing them to see themselves as being obligated to carry on in the Rebbe's derech?
This is the foundation of our problems--are we chosidelim or chassidim?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe Sharon is a Dictator as Rabbi Oliver claimed.
ReplyDeleteTodays news in Haaretz!
PM: Vote proves Knesset and public support pullout
By Gideon Alon
The Knesset plenum on Wednesday afternoon defeated three bills postponing the disengagement plan. The primary bill was defeated by a margin of 69-41 with two MKs abstained from voting.
Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Education Minister Limor Livnat were not present during the voting.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said after the vote that the Knesset had acted sensibly. "I was happy with the results. In today's vote, I saw a real expression of democracy. It was proven the government, the Knesset and the public support the disengagement," said Sharon.
Sharon also said that he would like to thank "everyone who guards democracy and makes sure we can continue and live in a democratic state. I understand the pain of the settlers. It hurts me as well. I also love them. I hope we move on. We are all one nation."
Sharon refused to comment on Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's absence from the vote, despite the fact that he was in the Knesset building at the time.
Media reports said two and a half weeks ago that Sharon's associates "threatened" to fire Netanyahu should he not appear at the vote. In response, Netanyahu announced he would not bend, and Sharon made it clear that there was no threat of dismissal.
In an interview with Channel 2 last weekend, Sharon said that he expects the defense minister to oppose the bill and act responsibly. He added that if Netanyahu will act otherwise, he will have to consider his next move.
However, it is unlikely that Sharon intends to take harsh measures, including firing the defense minister, one month before the disengagement. MKs Zevulun Orlev (National Religious Party), Yitzhak Levy (Renewed National Religious Zionism) and Uzi Landau (Likud), initiated the bills, despite their scant chances of success in becoming legislation. Orlev said Tuesday evening that he requested the heads of every Knesset faction grant their MKs freedom to vote according to their conscience, and not according to their party's decision.
Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom voted against the bills.
United Torah Judaism spiritual leader Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv had instructed MKs Avraham Ravitz and Moshe Gafni to vote in favor of the postponing the pullout, Israel Radio reported early Wednesday.
The ultra-Orthodox Degel Hatorah faction is mulling a no-confidence motion against the government despite its being a member of the coalition, Israel Radio reported.
Ravitz, who serves as a deputy minister, told Israel Radio that Israel Defense Forces soldiers are violating the Sabbath in their preparation for disengagement.
Knesset Chairman Reuven Rivlin and coalition chairman Gideon Sa'ar (Likud), both opponents of the disengagement, voted in support of the bills. Most of the Likud MKs voted against approving the bills, as well as the Labor faction, Shinui, Meretz-Yahad, and the Arab parties.
Some bloggers prefer debating what Rabbi Gutnick said and meant to learning the Rebbe’s own words and listening to tapes of his farbrengens. (understandably, as the Rebbe spoke in yiddish, while these people went to Yeshiva, and learnt in English, but “ein me’arvin blog b’blog”). To these people, I suggest that you do tzedakah and cause an increase in the study of torah by donating whatever Likutei Sichos you own to someone who will use them. There are many bochrim and yungerleit who can’t afford the whole set. Hollowed-out book covers are available from Hollywood movie sets to place in your bookcase in their stead.
ReplyDeleteAnd no one went to the pro-dsengagement folks and gave out Shabbos candles or asked them to put on tefillin? What kind of Lubavitchers are you anyway?
ReplyDeleteIt was very sad that no resolutions were done on Tuesday evening:-
ReplyDelete^To always daven with Minyan
^To go daily to Mikvah
^To learn more
^More Kiruv
^More Tzedoka
^More Tzinius
^Better supervision of our children
^Better Kashrus
etc. etc. In the end only this will help. Although Rabbi Oliver said we should not rely on Hashem (chas v'sholom)but to take things into our own hands, which is opposite of what the Rebbi taught us. But time will tell that not even 1 million orange balloons can change Sharon's heart. Only the Ribobo shel Olam can help us, so let's start looking for ways to improve OURSELVES, and in this zechus Hashem in his mercy will feel that we deserve to keep Gush Katif.
ad mosa-that is exactly what I have been saying all along. Spot on!
ReplyDeleteused to be Chabad meant we learned Chassidus and worked on ourselves, not marched in the streets chanting nonsense, making fools of ourselves. 'How the mighty have fallen!"
ReplyDeleteHere is an email I received from a prominent American rav this morning:
ReplyDeleteI don't recall anywhere where Gaza was promised to the Jews as part of Eretz Yisroel, except when the Moshiach comes.
But I guess some of them hold that theirs came and went already.
In halokho, it is clear that Eretz Yisreol ends at Ashk'lon, and so Gaza is not part of Eretz Yisroel and is classified as Mitzrayim.
That doesn't mean Israel should necessarily withdraw, but a Jew has no basis for saying that we have been promised that Gaza belongs to us now.
From NY Jewish Week:(07/22/2005)
ReplyDeleteRaising Their Voice Against The Pullout
At Midtown rally with a major Lubavitch presence and protests worldwide, Jews express solidarity for settlers and displeasure with Israeli government.
Mixing chants of “Not One Inch” with “We Want Moshiach Now,” a crowd of mostly Orthodox Jews packed a Midtown street Tuesday afternoon to protest Israel’s pending disengagement from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank.
The vast majority of participants appeared to be members of the Chabad Lubavitch movement, who packed children from day camps into a penned-off section of Broadway near Times Square and began the rally with them chanting psalms.
Police Department sources estimated the crowd at 1,000, although the master of ceremonies at the event, Dr. Joseph Frager, said he believed five times that number were present.
“We were very pleased with the turnout, and we’re going to do it again and again,” Frager said.
At the height of the rally, organized by the Alliance for Eretz Yisrael, participants and spectators filled the sidewalks on both sides of Broadway between West 40th and 41st streets. ...
Twenty-four other rallies were planned for Tuesday in major American cities such as Miami, Philadelphia, Denver and Chicago, as well as internationally in Amsterdam, Antwerp, London, Paris, Melbourne and Montreal. In Washington, D.C., some 200 protesters gathered near the Israeli Embassy.
Taking place as settlers and their supporters face off with the Israeli army in and around Gaza, the rally here featured mostly less-than-strident rhetoric, as well as musical productions like Avraham Fried singing “Gush Katif, we are with you.”
When Brooklyn Assemblyman Dov Hikind, who has led several delegations of American Jews to Gaza, took the microphone and sharply criticized Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, rally organizers tried to cut him off.
“It just shows how pathetic the situation is,” Hikind said later. “They didn’t want me to mention Sharon’s name. It’s OK to mention Shimon Peres, but not the man who was the architect of [disengagement], who is obsessed with unilateral withdrawal.”
In his brief comments before the crowd, Hikind noted that when Likud’s Sharon ran against Amram Mitzna of the Labor Party, Sharon said withdrawal from a single community in Gaza would be a victory for terrorism. Hikind then began a chant of “Shame on you” directed at Sharon.
Frager in his remarks claimed support for the pullout was plunging in both America and Israel, but a poll last week in Globes, an Israeli business magazine, said 54 percent of Israelis favored the pullout, while 40 percent were against it. And an Anti-Defamation League poll last week said some two-thirds of American Jews were backing the pullout.
“The government of Israel is running scared,” Frager said.
Other rally speakers included Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, spiritual leader of the West Bank town Efrat; Morton Klein, president of the Zionist Organization of America; Young Israel leader Rabbi Pesach Lerner; and G. Gordon Liddy in a barely audible phone hookup from Gush Katif, where he was doing his national radio show.
The large Chabad representation was a result of declarations by the late rebbe, Menachem Schneerson, that it is forbidden to relinquish any land held by Israel.
In a flier distributed at the rally, the rebbe was quoted as saying in 1990, “heaven forbid, to think of, or even worse, to speak about the possibility of giving even the smallest measure of Eretz Yisroel to non-Jews.”
Rabbi Leibel Groner, who served as the rebbe’s personal secretary, was listed as a speaker at the rally but he did not address the crowd. Tuesday morning, prior to the rally, he would not speak to The Jewish Week when reached by phone.
An organization of Chabad rabbis calling itself Pikuach Nefesh, Hebrew for “saving lives,” has been prodding the Lubavitch community to speak out against the disengagement, placing signs around the sect’s Crown Heights stronghold imploring community members to attend the rally. But Chabad leaders insisted the movement had no official position on opposing concessions of land.
“The rebbe wanted it to be a Jewish campaign [not only a Chabad campaign], and therefore didn’t want Chabad to be officially the prominent speakers behind it,” said Rabbi Aaron Raskin, a member of a prominent Chabad family and leader of Congregation Bnai Avraham in Brooklyn Heights as he walked to the rally, where he was one of the speakers. “That would perhaps diminish the other leaders and other communities from coming out.”
Others believe the rebbe wanted them to focus more on bringing Jews worldwide closer to Jewish observance — the central Chabad mission — than on getting involved in Israeli politics.
Rabbi Raskin called it a “mistake” that the Chabad movement didn’t speak out strongly in the early and mid-1990s, when Israel signed and implemented the Oslo Accords with the Palestinians that later collapsed into violence.
“If we would have protested it then, perhaps we wouldn’t have come to this situation today,” he said.
Chani Tessler, 29, of Crown Heights, holding a placard in one hand and her 18-month-old daughter, Perel, in the other, said she came to the rally because “when people see that people all over the world are gathering together and saying that they are not willing to accept what the government is doing, then we hope that the message comes across. Deep down, Sharon does not believe that what he’s doing is good.”
As she spoke, a passer-by snapped: “Palestine belongs to the Palestinians!”
Hikind said he was planning another mission to Gaza.
>>>>
My query is - if all those CH leaders including Rabbi leibel Groner were FOR the protest, why are our own Chabad rabbis not?
And how come Rabbi Motel Gutnick issues statements about not participating in the protest when this is clearly agaisnt the rebbes views?
I think he should publicly apologise for that letter or publicly state that he is no longer a chassid of the rebbe.
As for the myriad of other local chabad rabbis - shame on you all!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletesydney and especialy tzemach tzedek is a frum chaidishe community, we dont march in orange or bobbe maases like this, we sit and learn and farbreng all together and say tehillim and make hachlotos to improve our hiskashrus to the rebbe by learning, doing mivtzoim, achdus and ahavus yisroel
ReplyDeletethe deleted comment mentioned sydney in it which is why i posted the comment above, the moderator deleted it because it mentioned the name of a prominent family in sydney
ReplyDeleteOnce again we see more of the know-it-all attitude and misinformation peddled by the more radical members of the orange people.
ReplyDeleteYechi hamelech writes: "if all those CH leaders including Rabbi leibel Groner were FOR the protest, why are our own Chabad rabbis not?" I don't see any "CH leaders" mentioned in the article or is "Chani Tessler" a new CH leader. Or is this anonymous "pikuach nefesh" group the "CH leaders" referred to? And the article explicitly mentions that Rabbi Leibl Groner "did not address the crowd. Tuesday morning, prior to the rally, he would not speak to The Jewish Week when reached by phone." After reading all the articles I have not seen ONE recognised Chabad Rabbi or leader reported as having taken an active part in the street marches - even in Israel. Indeed even those few who, for whatever reason, did attend made a point of remaining clearly on the side-lines. So once again we see the explicit distortions and misrepresntation presented as fact!
The same dishonesty and distortion applies to the next statement presented by yechi hamelech: "how come Rabbi Motel Gutnick issues statements about not participating in the protest when this is clearly agaisnt the rebbes views?" You obviously haven't read Rabbi Gutnik's statement. Or if you have you are once again guilty of misrepresentation. Rabbi Gutnik specifically calls for protest - but in a less divisive and more constructive form that would have been much les political, more true to the Rebbe's derech and would have attracted a much greater and more representative crowd. At least Rabbi Gutnik was honest enough to admit that he is doubtful about the Rebbe's attitude to street marches in Chutz laaretz in this case, and offers advice accordingly, whereas yechi hamelech is just so sure that he/she knows exactly what the Rebbe would have said. Remember the case not so long ago when senior Chabad leaders in Israel (aided and abetted by one of the Mazkirim of the Rebbe no less!)who were so sure about what the Rebbe would want regarding Chabad's involvement in political issues in Israel only to eventually be told quite explicitly in no uncertain terms by the Rebbe himself that they were absolutely wrong! (Unfotunately one of the main players in that episode is no longer around to tell us where he went wrong.) One is playing on dangerous grouind when one presumes to know exactly what the Rebbe wants when it is clearly debatable. BUT NO, YECHI HAMELECH AND OLIVER TWIST KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE REBBE MEANT WHEN HE SAID THAT WE MUST PROTEST - QUESTIONABLE, DIVISIVE AND RADICAL METHODS NEED TO BE EMPLOYED AND TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY THIS IS ALL ADVOCATED IN THE NAME OF OUR REBBE.
Shame on YOU!
Yechi hamelech further writes "As for the myriad of other local chabad rabbis - shame on you all!" One thing we don't have to debate about is the fact that the Rebbe specifically instructed us to always consult with our Rabbonim. Shame of YOU, yechi hamelech, for the chutzpah in ignoring this explicit and unquestionable advice of the Rebbe and maligning all our local Chabad Rabbonim.
BUT THIS IS TYPICAL OF THE RADICAL KNOW-IT-ALLS WHO WOULD DISTORT, MISQUOTE, MISREPRESENT EVEN THE WORDS OF THE REBBE IN ORDER TO ENFORCE THEIR FANATICAL VIEWS!
Rabbi Gutnick doesn't need to aplogise for his honest and measured advice. Yechi HaMelech and Oliver Twist you should be the ones to apologise. Shame, shame on YOU...
The first Anonymous comment here quoted Sharon's speech as reported in a newspaper. Sharon uses the word DEMOCRACY 3 times.
ReplyDeleteIn school I learned history: Hitler came to power in the 1930's. Germany had a DEMOCRATIC government. Hitler was elected in a DEMOCRATIC vote. He proceeded to manipulate DEMOCRACY to suite his own goals!
I am definitely NOT comparing Sharon to Hitler. But I am saying that democracy has been replacing Torah values in Israel. Torah cannot be twisted, but democracy can be manipulated beyond recognition - read the new book called "Boomerang".
Bravo careful chosid.
ReplyDeleteThe manipulation of the facts by the Orange people is just so amazing. Look how yehi hamelch posts an article containing information so contrary to his obvious leanings and yet he tries to tries to make us believe it is supportive!
Just look at these quotes
"But Chabad leaders insisted the movement had no official position on opposing concessions of land."
"When Brooklyn Assemblyman Dov Hikind, who has led several delegations of American Jews to Gaza, took the microphone and sharply criticized Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, rally organizers tried to cut him off."
"Police Department sources estimated the crowd at 1,000"
And that is with the "rent-a-crowd" of bussed-in children! Hardly an impressive or successful gathering in a city of 3 million Jews!
By the way did the local rally get any real press or publicity other than in the local Jewish newspaper?
Was it really woth all the in-fighting, angst and alination of otherwise probable supporters?
How sad that the opportunity to make a real impression and kiddush hashem was lost by those who failed to consult but went ahead and recklessly did their own thing.
careful chosid-you wrote exactly what I would if I had had the energy to bother analyzing Rabbi Oliver's comments. Thanks for sying it for me, and so well!
ReplyDeleteIt has just dawned on me.
ReplyDeleteThe radical Lubavitcher Orange People such as yechi hamelech are obviously closely affiliated with the Messianic Yellow Flag people. It is therefore in their interests to misquote and bring the Rebbe into disrepute in the eyes of the hamon am and to to do the same with our Rabbis. The generation then becomes a "dor sheshafat et shoftav" one of the signs of the need for Moshiach. Their actions and comments that break-down respect for the Rebbe and Rabbonim is therefore all justified as being leshem shomayim as a calculated part of their warped plans to encourage the coming of Moshiach quicker.
The Chabad movement was once looked upon by those outside of frum circles as the angels of the Jewish world. We were the only Jews in black hats and wigs who smiled at the unaffiliated. We were those friendly Chassidim who gave out potatoe latkes on Chanukah and put tefillin on young college students in mivtzh tanks with Jewish music blaring with modern beat on campuses around the world. We selflessly helped all kinds of Jews with their physical and spiritual problems and everyone knew if you had a Jewish dilemma, call your local Chabad house for a solution. The assimilated saw us a bridge from their secular world to the distant traditional world of their grandfathers. We reignited their Jewish hearts, gave them the hemishe feeling they craved, and made them proiud to be Jews.
ReplyDeleteAnd today? Today we have transformed into strange a movement that squabbles over whether or not our Rebbe, who passed away eleven years ago, is alive or is the Moshiach, and over what his words meant. The Jewish world watches us as we fight in court over a stolen cornerstone. Shluchim embroiled in fierce territorial conflicts with each other and fanatical Messianists with a tentative grip on reality, all passionately claiming to be doing our Rebbe's will, dominate the media stories about Chabad.
One can only conclude that the Rebbe is crying in Himel!
careful chosid said...
ReplyDeleteYechi hamelech writes: "if all those CH leaders including Rabbi leibel Groner were FOR the protest, why are our own Chabad rabbis not?" I don't see any "CH leaders" mentioned in the article
/////////
Huh? Rabbi Leibel Groner isn't a CH leader???
---
by yechi hamelech: "how come Rabbi Motel Gutnick issues statements about not participating in the protest when this is clearly agaisnt the rebbes views?" You obviously haven't read Rabbi Gutnik's statement. Or if you have you are once again guilty of misrepresentation. Rabbi Gutnik specifically calls for protest - but in a less divisive and more constructive form that would have been much les political, more true to the Rebbe's derech
/////
Rubbish!!
Rabbi Mottel is being typically wishy-washy saying everything and nothing and trying to keep everybody happy. He could have said clearly it is OSSUR to attend, but of course didn't because he is still a bit afraid of the rebbe!
Rabbi Groner and even Mottel's father used to give CLEAR and open instrcutions. But I note that this has become the way of melb rabbis
eg the unbelievable weak response to the mechitzeh matter at the Chevrak kadisha by meir Shlomo.
These young rabbis should realise that they are in a position to spread the Dvar Hashem and should not throw away sych an opportunity. At the same time is it too much to expect Lubavitcher rabbis to follow the rebbe's directions and requests?
That means - at this time - to speak loud and ofetn about shleimas haaretz and giyur kehalacha.
Remember rabbis - you will be giving din vacheshbon for everything that you could have achieved and didn't.
-----------
At least Rabbi Gutnik was honest enough to admit that he is doubtful about the Rebbe's attitude to street marches in Chutz laaretz in this case, and offers advice accordingly, whereas yechi hamelech is just so sure that he/she knows exactly what the Rebbe would have said.
=======
Come off it! Rabbi Gutnik knows as well as I do what the rebbes attitude was. The rebbe almost got sick over the sheleimas haaretz issue and did everything possible to defend it
----
Yechi hamelech further writes "As for the myriad of other local chabad rabbis - shame on you all!" One thing we don't have to debate about is the fact that the Rebbe specifically instructed us to always consult with our Rabbonim. Shame of YOU, yechi hamelech, for the chutzpah in ignoring this explicit and unquestionable advice of the Rebbe and maligning all our local Chabad Rabbonim.
>>.
Maybe you are a rabbi and feel insulted by what I wrote. However
Chazal tell us "bemakom sheyesh Chilul Hashem ein cholkin kavod lerav". Hear that? No kavod to a rav when he causes Chilul Hashem!!
The rebbe would have disowned some of our so-called Chabad rabbonim who are often neither Chabad - nor Rabbonim
---
Rabbi Gutnick doesn't need to aplogise for his honest and measured advice.
==
Forget about apologising. Doing Teshuva is more like it
yechi hamelech - No I am not a Rabbi. I am just an ordinary person who however heeds the Rebbe's explicit instruction of assey lecho Rav. Or does your know-it-all attitude corrupt the Rebbe's words here too by saying that we only have to heed our Rabbonim when they say what WE want them to say?
ReplyDeleteYou really have not addressed the real issues that I have raised have you? You are simply an extraordinary yesh in that you claim that you and only you know exactly what the Rebbe and the Rabbonim REALLY mean and think.
The bottom line is that the results usually attest to what was right and what was wrong.
Did this particular local rally really achieve anything? Did the antics of our boys and girls in particular make a Kiddush Lubavitch in the eyes of the rest of the community? Would the Rebbe really have approved of these antics and the flag etc etc etc?Did it strengthen the numbers supporting Shleimus Ha'Aretz or simply alienate many who may otherwise have been onside?
You can live in dream world but I think that unfortunately most of us fully realise the answer to these questions.
The more people like you persist in speaking on behalf off the Rebbe in their blinkered, beligerent know-it-all way and denigrate everyone else, the more the Rebbe and the issues he cared for are unfortunately harmed. The Rebbe did not support or call for street marches at the time Yamit was given back despite the same vehemence of his opposition and he therby clearly remphasised his negative attitude to such puiblic marches and protests. The Chabad leaders in Eretz Yisroel (and also the Mazkir in that case) that I referred to were also so sure that they knew what the Rebbe wanted in that infamous episode- but it turned out that they too were absolutely wrong.
I just hope that you be granted the clarity to see who really needs to do Teshuvah for the damage to the Rebbe and the cause of Gush Katif that you and your one-eyed fanatical friends are reponsible for.
Broken heart - I cry with you. I just hope and pray that your devorim that are obviously yotzim are indeed nichnosim. I am sure that Leima will act as a meilitz yosher for us all. Bila hamovess lonetzach.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Broken heart My wife and I have decided to get rid of our TV.
ReplyDeleteI pray that this will be a Zechus for Gush Katif residents as well as a Ilo Neshomo for Leima!
I do not understand why people knock Rabbi Groner. Although he had enormous pressure put on him to officially support the march, he refused.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Groner is not a weak leader.
The local fanatics and radicals must be proud of their Israeli counterparts who are apparently causing the disengagement to be brought fowards! (ISRAELI NAT NEWS
ReplyDeleteFanatics can never avhieve anything positive
If Ariel Sharon didn't exist, we'd have to invent him. He sits there like a Buddha, in girth and facial expression, as his political buddies and settler friends curse and swear at him. They regard him as a traitor to the cause, as they man the barricades and wave the banner of rebellion against unilateral disengagement from Gaza.
ReplyDeleteBut the scarier the threats, the less his facial muscles move. His response is a mute one, calling to mind General de Gaulle's "je vous ai compris" - "I understood you" - to the settlers in Algeria. He understood them, but he did the opposite of what they thought he understood.
It took the settlers and the fanatics some time for it to sink in that the greatest illusionist in the land really meant what he said this time. After Ben-Gurion in 1949 and Yitzhak Rabin in 1993, Sharon is the third prime minister to grasp that there is no escape from dividing the country - in this case, a moment before Israel finds itself with an Arab majority and the clock runs out.
After the invasion of Iraq and the fall of the Twin Towers, Sharon realized that the world is no longer willing to accept land grabs and one nation controlling another. He and Bush have found a common language about what needs to be done and what is expected of him.
"Gaza is not the land of our forefathers, and we have no business there," Sharon said. But it soon dawned on his friends, the Zambish-clones and Yesha chiefs, that this move is a Pandora's box. They realized that Sharon is evacuating Gush Katif, but he means Judea and Samaria, that agreeing to establish a Palestinian state on land that is mostly in our hands is another way of saying: bye-bye Greater Land of Israel. Sharon's initiative does indeed end the status quo, and it is clearly not a one-shot deal.
Fanatics of all stripes - rabbis, messianists, believers in Jabotinsky's vision of a state on both banks of the Jordan - have found an excuse for mutiny. Sharon has betrayed them, and he will pay. But when they shout about Jews expelling Jews from Gush Katif, the personal fate of these people matters to them like the snows of yesteryear. They want to create a situation where, financial and other perks aside, the whole country writhes in pain. That way they think the evacuation of settlements will not continue.
In telegraphic code, the explanation for Sharon's about-face would read: We had a dream. We couldn't make it happen. The messianists accept the dream but not its demise. All the talk of a clash of civilizations, a global war on Islamic terror, the threat of mega-attacks and maybe someday nuclear attacks - none of this makes an impression on the fanatics or the ultra-Orthodox settlers and their rabbis. What they understand is that from August, they will be living in a different Israel.
"Israel leaves Gaza to build Israel," goes the slogan that will star in the battle for public opinion. The Yesha camp, a minority in Israel, is seeking in the name of God, the Messiah and other patron saints, to undermine the authority of the state in a campaign of terror and intimidation.
For the moment, however, plans to inundate Gush Katif with tens of thousands of demonstrators have been nipped in the bud by a massive deployment of policemen plucked from every hill and dale. (I was personally gratified to see on the screen a certain traffic cop who is very quick to hand out tickets in my neighborhood, defending democracy in the boiling heat over in Kfar Maimon.)
However you look at it, the demonstrators have lost the first round. But they are sure to be back - again and again. Because their goal is to drive the country crazy, shake the foundations of democracy and diminish the motivation of our soldiers and policemen.
After Gush Katif is evacuated - and it will be - the settlers will shift their defiance and provocation to the territories and the center of the country. For that reason, Sharon's next move will, and must be, an immediate call for early elections, in order to reshuffle the cards in the political arena. The majority of Israelis want this country to remain a democracy, and the army and police force are not going to be stopped by a handful of Land of Israel loonies.
After the disengagement begins and the first four settlements in Samaria are evacuated, Sharon may veer rightward to get reelected. But once the elections are out of the way, he will forge ahead on the road map and sock it to the fanatics who are challenging the state's authority with an even greater majority behind him. Get ready for the mother of all elections.
Yechi hamelech said: "Rabbi Mottel is being typically wishy-washy saying everything and nothing and trying to keep everybody happy."
ReplyDeleteChaya said "I do not understand why people knock Rabbi Groner. Although he had enormous pressure put on him to officially support the march, he refused"
Don't you understand Chaya? Even if they do take a principled and honest stand if they don't support and tow the radical line they are labelled weak, or wishy washy, or not a Chosid etc etc etc.
careful chosid said...
ReplyDeleteYechi hamelech said: "Rabbi Mottel is being typically wishy-washy saying everything and nothing and trying to keep everybody happy."
... if they don't support and tow the radical line they are labelled weak, or wishy washy, or not a Chosid etc etc etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
Sorry my friend, but you have it wrong.
When they ARE wishy-washy - then we call them wishy-washy
This is a fascinating example of the radical and fanatical revolutionary that cannot achieve change while working within the existing structure but needs to destroy the existing structure in order to try to build his own. He does this by firstly preaching and working for anarchy - the destruction of structured leadership. The rest will soon follow.
ReplyDeleteCareful Chossid and Chaya - you will not get a rational response from people like yechi hamelech. They have the anarchists' attitude - destroy the existing system by firstly destroying authority and then you can try to sow your own revolutionary ideas on the ruins.
The Rebbe saw this danger of anarchy in his absence and therefore pushed the teachings of our sages of assey lecho Rav - because of the importance of maintaining a structured leadership even if one had to fall back on the concept of Yiphtach bedoro kiShmuel bedoro.
The fanatic and radical revolutionary however needs to destroy the leadership system and that's why people like yechi hamelech will always criticise the existing rabbinic and communal leadership no matter what stand or position they take.
So you are really wasting your time in discussion with them about this topic. No amount of logic or explanation will temper or halt their fanatacism or radical views and you cannot expect a rational explanation to those views. So don't waste your time trying. Just ignore them and go on with your own constructive projects as the Rebbe would want.
You are very wrong. I am not against leadership - true, firm, Torah leadership - even if I disagree with their views. But when it is blatantly obvious that certain rabbis are 'playing for the audience' and the Jewish News and its readership - rather than representing Torah and the rebbe - that is when I get upset.
ReplyDeleteIn the recent controversies, do you think that some of the rabbis quoted TRULY believe what they say in public?
Of course not, but they have to appear like humble meek PC types who let their [often frei] bosses direct their words.
The rebbe did not approve of such weakness
yechi hamelech-Rabbi Mottel Gutnick said what he beleived.
ReplyDeleteYechi Hamelech. who are you kidding. You are the true HYPOCRITE! Aren't the Yechinicks the champions of playing for the audience etc.. Everything you fellows do is only publicity and marketing. How many millions of good money has been wasted on this nonsence. Flags, signs, badges, cars etc. You fellows only live for the world. Your problem is that the world is laughing how crazy you are to try to impress them that the Rebbe is alive and Moshiach.
ReplyDeletead mosa-the YECHNIKS often accuse the shluchim who do not abide by their antics of being into meny and fundraising while they claim to be the holy ones, above the gashmias, into bringing Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteThe irony of that is that the YECHNIKS have done more to alienate Jews from Chabad, thereby holding Moshiach back from coming sooner, than even the goyim in their wildest dreams could not have done.
shlompy-you think this silly little rally will stop the disengagement? If so how naive you are!
ReplyDeleteThe Chilul Hashem came from the lack of menchkite from the organizers and the way the march was conducted with girls singing and other silliness.
I don't understand the worry about girls singing. Are they not taught in BR that it is OK....
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately what BR teaches is not always the same as the Shulchan Aruch teaches. To have 17 year old BR girls singing and jumping infront of Bochurim on Hotham Street in front of thr Yeshiva, shows Aveira gorreret Aveira!
ReplyDeleteIf it is for SHLEIMOS HAARETZ evenen if they wore orange bathing suits would be OK according to some!
ReplyDeleteWell, well, well, after years of enjoying the support and protection of the state of Israel and of the IDF in particular, the settlement movement has decided to teach others a number of lessons:
ReplyDelete1. How to be thankless. They are now calling Israel undemocratic; labeling their patron, Sharon, a traitor (and far worse), and; applying pressure to anybody among them who supports the government.
2. How to undermine democracy. They are breaking the law on a consistent basis. Usually the law-breaking has not involved physical harm to others, but economic damage has definitely been caused.
The reasoning they tend to use involves the illegitimacy of this government, its prime minister, the supreme court, and their decisions. They attack the media as if it is one big illegitimate block that aligns itself with the state and avoids real reporting. They attack the police for using “evil” tactics and the IDF for being politicized.
There remains not a single organ of the state which is not under attack. What is more disturbing is that rabbis are given respect not accorded to the government or its organs.
3. How to significantly weaken the IDF. This one is a particularly unfortunate decision they have made. By encouraging mass defections and mass refusal to serve or to obey orders, they have opened the floodgates. As Chief of Staff Halutz told their leadership today, they are establishing a prededent wherein Leftist secular soldiers could refuse to serve in, say, Hebron. The very act of refusal of a legitimate and peaceful government decision, and the obvious attempt to provide rabbis with greater authority than commanders also assures the IDF that in the future at least one part of its forces may not be reliable.
4. How to pin down the IDF, the police and essentially shut down the state. Now this is a particularly valuable lesson that the settlers are providing to the Palestinians.
First of all, the settlers were able to smuggle a few hundred people into Gaza last week, proving that Gaza cannot be sealed. The Palestinians are giddy with joy.
Second, the settlers are now planning to recreate their efforts at Kfar Maimon last week by doing it in two places simultaneously. Why? Because they were able to put a great deal of stress on both the IDF and police manpower capability at Kfar Maimon. They believe that two centers will really weaken these forces’ ability to respond and control large numbers of people. Oh my, are the Palestinians happy about this. I hear they are already pulling off their shelves the dusty copies of Ghandi’s abridged “How to Practice Overwhelming Civil Disobedience” and watching carefully to see how many locations and how many thousands of peaceful protesters are sufficient to overwhelm the IDF. In a coordinated move, one can see how this would work nicely with a coordinated attack from an enemy such as Hizbullah in Lebanon.
And so it goes. A legitimate disagreement with a government decision has made the settlers decide they will undermine everything about the state that has enabled the state to last this long and to have a promising future. I’m sure they’re telling themselves that the harder they make it, the better it will be in the long run because they will scare off any government that wishes to affect settlers in the West Bank. What they don’t seem to want to realize or acknowledge is that they are causing harm that is stressful to the system and the state, and jeopardizes both its democracy and its deterrent power with respect to its military and its police.
Pretty thankless, if you ask me.
This has been said on this site many times. Silcove has correctly said that these Yechinicks are damaging the settlers case!
ReplyDeleteEvelyn Leitner has sadly been misled by the lies of the leftist media. Women-in-green have the perfect answers for you! Please go to www.womeningreen.org
ReplyDeleteEvelyn have you ever seen www.israelnationalnews.com What do you think?
ReplyDeleteEvelyn, You write well and sound like a very intelligent Jewish woman who is committed to Israel.
ReplyDeleteWould you like to come to my home for a Shabbos meal sometime?
I would like to hear more of your views.
We would probaly find we have more in common than not since we are both Jewish women who love Israel.
Shoshanna you are very kind. I would love to but live in Perth. I will be in touch as I have family in Melbourne. Isn't it funny that if anyone disagrees with the anonymous orange people they have been sadly missled.
ReplyDeleteYes I watch INN daily. But I also read other sites so I have a balanced informed view. I also Email to many settlers. But I am not one who cannot see outside the square!
Evelyn,
ReplyDeletePlease contact me when you come to Melbourne my email is sds@iprimus.com.au
I am against disengagement but please do not put me in the same group as the local orange people. I believe we can disagree, but civilly, without acrimony or violence, and we must maintain the social order. I do not believe that Jews should be pitted against one another and still respect Sharon for all he has done in his life for Israel.
Some people only see things in black and white, it takes maturity and wisdom to be able to admit that any times issues are not so clear cut.
To shlompy, although I do not understand your coment, but if you talk of bad language Please let your noble comment to people like Oliver, Aaron, Joel etc. Most of the people who have been abused do not deserve it. Politness would give your cause far more success!
ReplyDeleteTo Shlompy-- I would take your criticism to heart-but where did I call anone a 'lunatic" on this site? And what is wrong with the word 'fanatic"? I do not believe that is a word I should apologize for using.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, the emails I and others received from the organisers of the lcoal orange fanatics could not even be printed on this site because of the filthy language used by the fanatical organisers.
And if you do not agree with my letter to the AJN, then write your own, if you are able to, because I also found your comments here on this blog to be quite unintelligable.
Shlompy-and another point--re-read the letter posted above written by the shaliach talking about the meeting in Florida. He says the Rebbe called people who harrass others (like those local orange peple who sent out threatening and vile emails) TERRORISTS. That was the Rebbe's language, not mine, and I would say that the word TERRORIST is harsher than calling them FANATICS.
ReplyDeleteSo be glad I only used the word fanatic and be glad the Rebbe isn't here in the flesh because if he were he may very well be calling your group a bunch of TERRORISTS. And if he did, would yo accuse the Rebbe of not having ahavas yisroel? Would you demand an apology from the Rebbe too?
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ReplyDeleteWhat do the protests say about the misconceptions of democracy? While the settlers moan that they have not been treated democratically, they seem not to know that referendums are the exception, and rarely used, in democracies.
ReplyDeleteThey also seem not to know that obeying the laws as set down in the parliament, and confirmed by the courts, is exactly what democracy is about.
If they cannot see that what they are doing is profoundly undemocratic, then all is lost. They will continue to imagine themselves in the right, and the country will be well and truly into the oft-predicted 'kulturkampf' between the religious and the secular. It will tear the nation apart.
Civics must be taught. At the very least, the opposers of the law must know that they cannot cite "democracy" when they tread on it.
PninaThe causes for the "kulterkaumpf" are quite complicated and both sides, secular and religious, can take thier share of the blame. Be fair!
ReplyDeleteMr Shlompy. Do you really think it bothers Sharon if Jews stay in Gaza. I have read the cabinet in seriously considering to let them stay under Arab rule. The Israeli army cannot continue to afford 8 soldiers for every settler. The army is leaving. Although some settlers are threatening suicide but Sharon knows letting settlers stay in Gaza without this terrible Israeli army their will not be any need for suicide as the chances of these fanatical right wingers between sot so desirable Arabs is a recipe for disaster. So Sharon is looking after these settlers. But if his patience runs out the settlers will be check mate!
ReplyDeleteIts very sad that Martha and Pnina from Israel, are addressing the issues on the surface only. Let's get to the source of the problem!
ReplyDeleteRead the revealation in the new book called "Boomerang". Former intelligence and investigative journalists said "disengagement is a distraction and a cover up of Sharon's corrupt business deals in the Greek Islands". He did not start any defamation proceedings against the authors! They wrote the unchallegeable truth!
To push it thru, Sharon has dispensed with "democracy". He bribed some ministers. Anyone who spoke out against it has been sacked. He uses Israeli police like the KGB or Stassi. Kids are in prison without any charges! The courts and judges are all leftists. The media is all left wing. IsraelNationalRadio was taken off air (he is probably trying to jam the internet version too)
So if dictator Sharon cares not about democracy, and will crush all opposition, then why should the brave protestors care about the fake "democracy"? Maybe a short period of civil disobedience is necessary, to save Israel and the whole world from terrorists !
shlompy--are you shomer Torah & Mitzvot?
ReplyDeleteShlompy your facts are as accurate as your spelling. The Housing minister NEVER said he will evict only the religious settlers.
ReplyDeleteNote:I do not believe some are so religious looking at there disgusting contempt to law, halachah, chillul hashem, memory of the holocaust and simple mentchlichkeit!
Jenny, are you equally disgusted by Sharon's contempt of law? His perversion of democracy? Isn't Sharon the source of the problem?
ReplyDeleteshlompy, yes Sharon is the root of the problem, but you and your associates are also not part of the solution.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, you make matters worse by alienating people from a good cause. You make matters worse by erasing good chances of educating our fellow Jews about what is happening in EY because they are disgusted by your rudeness, your tactics, your hostitlity, and your pushiness. You and your group have only caused more polarisation of Melbourne Jewry.
That is why many anti-disengeagment Jews are upset with you.
Do you get it yet?
shlompy, that is exactly the point. They did not attend because your tactics put them off from going! You did not attract them but the way you went abut this repelled them instead!!
ReplyDeleteThe orange people pick up the most extreme right wing overseas propaganda, like women in green or Arutz sheva and try to tell us that it is mainstream. Don't under estimate others inteligence!
ReplyDeleteafter 2 months criticism, still no logical reason emerging, except that the majority at the rally were teenagers covered in Orange. So what if the kids had fun? Have you forgot you were young once? Despite the rumours, they were disciplined, watched the videos quietly and learned a lot. They said tehillim too!
ReplyDeleteOur opposition is dreaming - you should see Israel - every second car has an orange ribbon! The place is covered in orange, kids T-shirts, caps, face paint, even icy poles in orange flavour.
But you're still not convinced. OK, I give in. Now YOU can organise an "orange free" rally, anyone with orange is banned! Will you have guts to try it?